Armsmen in 2018

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  • In my experience shoke casters with the latest buffs and ra setups are just as resilient as heavy
    No need to call people dumb if you don’t agree that’s fine this thread has been pretty civil so far and some great input It’s for people who play heavies mainly armsmen on a regular basis and it’s highlighting our experiences and what we see as problems with the class.
  • edited January 10 PM
    @Brut Casters are more resilient than before, but you can't say that a caster is tougher to bring down than a heavy with 4k HP and 40+% secondary resists...

    I'd say the exception would be a high rank mind sorc, holy crap they are tough to bring down.

    I can tell you when I get zerged down my hero can stand in the middle of the alb zerg for 15-20 seconds without dieing but my casters insta die...
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • If armsmen were any good people would play them.
  • @Cartoan every serious group runs an armsman.
  • Llewd wrote: »
    Armsmen aren't broken... I'm shocked more people don't run them and more heavies in general. I think most of it is due to slam crutch and a ton of people spec for slam. This is stupid and a waste of spec points.

    No one said Armsmen are "broken".

    People run heavy tanks. People play armsmen, hero's and warriors. The reason you don't see a plethora of armsmen in NF is they are subpar in every aspect of game play. They aren't "unplayable" and plenty of groups do perfectly fine incorporating them into set 8 man builds. That being said, they really need a "dusting off" to bring them more in line with the current state of DAoC. That doesn't imply you need to make the class OP. There are plenty of suggestions throughout this thread that could be incorporated that would increase class utility without making it an over powered archtype.

    The point is they need to be looked at. The class has remained stagnant for years and overall utility/effectiveness has declined with each successive class update.
  • out of curiosity

    paladin vs armsman

    who wins ?

    ....

    same question

    warrior vs valk,

    who wins ?

    ...

    blabla, same on hib.

    ...

    in a one on one, the heavy tank should win always !

    because the hybrid has so much more group utility that the heavy tank doesn't have.


    /discuss
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • KoeKoe
    edited January 13 PM
    Armagedden wrote: »
    Llewd wrote: »
    Armsmen aren't broken... I'm shocked more people don't run them and more heavies in general. I think most of it is due to slam crutch and a ton of people spec for slam. This is stupid and a waste of spec points.

    How in the motherloving Eff is speccing slam a waste of spec points as a heavy? What should they be speccing then, 50 parry!?

    I have to assume the guy was joking, right?

    That said, on the R5 comparison others said, you'd also want to look at Curse and cloak abilities. Different/unique but useful is always good. Good classes.
    Post edited by Koe on
  • Llewd mainly solos, that's why he prefers higher parry whilenstill being able to reliably land a 8 sec stun using mangle.
  • Armsman cloak rock ! Ignore pbt
  • Muylae wrote: »
    out of curiosity

    paladin vs armsman

    who wins ?

    ....

    same question

    warrior vs valk,

    who wins ?

    ...

    blabla, same on hib.

    ...

    in a one on one, the heavy tank should win always !

    because the hybrid has so much more group utility that the heavy tank doesn't have.


    /discuss

    Paladin wins hands down 1v1 vs armsman.

    Valk/warr is up in the air

    Hib.... I mean hero gets 2 IPs in 1v1 so whatever
  • The armsman class needs to be reviewed @John_Broadsword. It's been lagging behind for years now. An increase in spec points would benefit the class tremendously but alternative alterations should be considered as well.
  • edited January 14 PM
    Free Armsman 2k20
    Post edited by Cruelpole on
  • edited January 14 PM
    Valk > Warrior
    Pala > Armsman
    Hero > Champ

    Hard to really say because spec is really a key factor in who wins what. But just assuming it's the most common 1v1 spec/ra that's my choice.
    Post edited by Impounded on
    Impounded - Warrior__________Gimpound - Champion
    Chantsy - Paladin____________Shaquilleoatmeal - Berserker
    Cowtastrophe - Hero__________Shrimpsticks - Infiltrator

    Feel free to add me on Discord: Impounded#5743

    >Daoc Videos<
  • Same realm 1v1 doesnt matter, mauler wins all anyway. Also they are all different roles in groups, paladin does an arms job worse, hero and champ cant even compare in terms of roles. If thats an argument, give Reavers same PB dmg as bainshees, since they both got pulsing PB dmg and reavers not even close.

    Jokes aside, I rather see some overperforming classes nerf then start boosting classes that performing well enough 1 by 1 all over again.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Same realm 1v1 doesnt matter, mauler wins all anyway. Also they are all different roles in groups, paladin does an arms job worse, hero and champ cant even compare in terms of roles. If thats an argument, give Reavers same PB dmg as bainshees, since they both got pulsing PB dmg and reavers not even close.

    Jokes aside, I rather see some overperforming classes nerf then start boosting classes that performing well enough 1 by 1 all over again.

    absolutely right. this game is not a 1v1 game its a rvr game and arms still play an important role in groups there's no doubt, but they are still sub par vs their counterparts and deserve slight love. Change the rr5 to make it group friendly, or give them a slight boost in spec points, like .2 so they can get a little better defense and come in line with warrior.

    For me, it was always the combined disadvantage (in my mind) of alb tanks. Reaver isn't so great in group, Merc wasn't so great in group (now their DT helps with casters nearsight and their rr5 is nice), and paladin to me feels like unless you play the class well in the group you might as well bring something else to the grp.. Those three core alb tank classes just don't do well together for a group
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Same realm 1v1 doesnt matter, mauler wins all anyway. Also they are all different roles in groups, paladin does an arms job worse, hero and champ cant even compare in terms of roles.

    Jokes aside, I rather see some overperforming classes nerf then start boosting classes that performing well enough 1 by 1 all over again.

    I'm not a huge fan of inner-realm comparisons either, but the Armsman class in particular is not "...performing well enough...". They are not even remotely over powered and are in fact in very much need of a class review.

    Let's face facts. If BS took your initiative and started nerfing overperforming classes to the extent at which the armsman class regains the effectiveness they've lost, we may as well revert the game back 10 years...

    That isn't going to happen. BS doesn't revert backwards, they make changes moving forward and tweak those changes when necessary.

    That being said the only way to improve the Armsmen class is to tweak it moving forward, which absolutely needs to happen. There isn't a single justifiable counter argument against the fact that armsman are the worst performing main heavy tank in the game.

    Once again, this isn't implying the class is unplayable - it is a statement that the class needs reviewed and brought back in line.

  • I just need an incentive to play mine. There is nothing the Armsman does better than any other class on Alb. Hell my friar is a FAR superior bodyguarder. My merc has vastly superior DPS and takes a hit exactly the same. My Inf is a better keep infiltrator, my Pally is a better all around tank... Seriously...theres no role the Arms plays better than my other toons. Maybe in an 8man an Arms for peals with Fury/Rampage for eating damage is useful but I feel like a heretic could do that even better...snare peals and fanataism + insane DPS. /shrug I dunno

    Give me a reason to play my Arms!
  • I’m done playing mine only bring him out for bar mitzvah’s and Scottish country dancing events at the Camelot
    Pub.There is no where to play him and it’s too much of a ball ache trying to get a tank train running on alb kinda sad really rip Brut.
  • The only thing I would say is to be very careful how you tweak alb. Alb is very strong and has some ridiculous abilities on some classes, while other classes are just OP in what they do (theurgist, tic).

    Alb tanker is a viable comp, it is actually fun to play when there is something else than zergs to fight. Buff the Armsman too much and that comp could be a little too strong.

    Not saying buffing the Arms will make Alb OP, but Alb is already on the verge of OPness, so let's make sure the Arms is not strictly compared to Hero and War and that a broader view is used when looking at the Arms.
  • edited January 16 PM
    Remove pulse pet charm 2k20!

    Honestly, it's difficult to know what to tweak on the Arms without breaking something due to the ability bloat that Live has. I wouldn't be opposed to modifying their RR5 as a group utility buff or some damage mitigation buff to be comparable to a Hero's Moose and Warrior's Tetsudo. I suppose one could gather the list of abilities from each realm, evaluate their respective counters across realm, and change their RR5 to either fill an ability hole or counter gap before adding something new. That would require some effort though...
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
  • edited January 17 PM
    Nah, just make them hit twice as hard as hero. [removed]
    Post edited by Carol_Broadsword on
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Same realm 1v1 doesnt matter, mauler wins all anyway. Also they are all different roles in groups, paladin does an arms job worse, hero and champ cant even compare in terms of roles. If thats an argument, give Reavers same PB dmg as bainshees, since they both got pulsing PB dmg and reavers not even close.

    Jokes aside, I rather see some overperforming classes nerf then start boosting classes that performing well enough 1 by 1 all over again.

    Yes
  • Mace80 wrote: »
    I just need an incentive to play mine. There is nothing the Armsman does better than any other class on Alb. Hell my friar is a FAR superior bodyguarder. My merc has vastly superior DPS and takes a hit exactly the same. My Inf is a better keep infiltrator, my Pally is a better all around tank... Seriously...theres no role the Arms plays better than my other toons. Maybe in an 8man an Arms for peals with Fury/Rampage for eating damage is useful but I feel like a heretic could do that even better...snare peals and fanataism + insane DPS. /shrug I dunno

    Give me a reason to play my Arms!

    Sounds like a lot of alb toons need a slight nerf.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Jokes aside, I rather see some overperforming classes nerf then start boosting classes that performing well enough 1 by 1 all over again.

    DING DING DING

    Impounded - Warrior__________Gimpound - Champion
    Chantsy - Paladin____________Shaquilleoatmeal - Berserker
    Cowtastrophe - Hero__________Shrimpsticks - Infiltrator

    Feel free to add me on Discord: Impounded#5743

    >Daoc Videos<
  • Impounded wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    Jokes aside, I rather see some overperforming classes nerf then start boosting classes that performing well enough 1 by 1 all over again.

    DING DING DING

    I didn't think a logical approach to balance was allowed on Ywain.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
  • I would typically agree with you...but having BS mess with a bunch of toons sounds far more risky than bumping up one toon. Just saying....
  • Mace80 wrote: »
    I would typically agree with you...but having BS mess with a bunch of toons sounds far more risky than bumping up one toon. Just saying....

    Agree'd.

    There is no logical counter argument against reviewing the Armsman class. It's time an adjustment was made to improve the class @John_Broadsword
  • Look the only way to sort any of these balance problems is revert to the pre ruined keep patch it seems that’s when the game was pretty balanced and just start again.
  • Brut wrote: »
    Look the only way to sort any of these balance problems is revert to the pre ruined keep patch it seems that’s when the game was pretty balanced and just start again.

    Not exactly sure when this was, but yes I think anything from DF revamp and/or prior was an amazingly balanced game
  • From my point of view most classes defenses and healing in general got out of control. Especially on heavies.

    We regularly have the situation that even my group with 13Lx casters can't shut down (debuffed) tanks reliably at walls - but get hit for over 600 in return.
    I know the presence of active RAs and abilities - but having to pump 20k+ dmg into a single heavy before he even drops is wrong by design.

    That's well known and a major reason why Hero runs with over 10 of them regularly.
  • Skazur wrote: »
    From my point of view most classes defenses and healing in general got out of control. Especially on heavies.

    We regularly have the situation that even my group with 13Lx casters can't shut down (debuffed) tanks reliably at walls - but get hit for over 600 in return.
    I know the presence of active RAs and abilities - but having to pump 20k+ dmg into a single heavy before he even drops is wrong by design.

    That's well known and a major reason why Hero runs with over 10 of them regularly.

    Your issue is with the Hero class specifically and the realm synergy of Hibernia.

    This thread is specified to the Armsman class in general and ways to make the class more viable.

    I would recommend starting a new thread to discuss issues with Hibernian synergy.
  • Armagedden wrote: »
    Brut wrote: »
    Look the only way to sort any of these balance problems is revert to the pre ruined keep patch it seems that’s when the game was pretty balanced and just start again.

    Not exactly sure when this was, but yes I think anything from DF revamp and/or prior was an amazingly balanced game

    Although I agree with both of you, since there is no methodology in place to revert the Ywain server back in time, the only thing to do is to make reasonable alterations to the Armsman class moving forward to bring it back in line with the current state of the game.

    An increase in spec points, increases to polearm/2hander style damage and growth rates for armsmen in particular and/or better group synergy of the armsman class are all viable topics that have been discussed as to how to improve the class without breaking it.
  • I feel like bumping Polearm would be the best option as it is the only class unique aspect.

    Perhaps some pbaoe shouts that help their group/realm would help with the synergy issue. Maybe a polearm style like pin...I don't know. 8man stuff is cancer to me but I get that it matters to some.
  • Give arms pin and they would be OP
  • A long time ago it was explained to me like this. Heros have to split spec if they want damage while behind their shield. So they go a little lower in shield and parry to get damage with both one and two hand weapons. But they get stag which helps balance that out since they can take more damage for a short period. A warrior gets free two hander so they can easily spec higher in shield and parry. They don't have to skimp on defense when switching up so they can negate more damage. An armsman had plate armour. Plate has the highest abs and af of all the armors. Plate was supposed to be the balancer for the armsman taking/negating damage like the other heavy tanks. But with the current state of the game plate doesn't cut it. They don't need a big change, but they do need something. 30 second evade boost, 30 second abs buff, 30 second block boost, something.
  • edited January 18 PM
    They only need a more longer peel duration . The hybrid class peel are better
    Post edited by Hellblast on
  • Hmm, from the feedback I'd say:

    1. Increase Polearm peels duration to align them with warr/hero peels (20+ seconds snares side and back)
    2.1. Increase the ABS buff they have from 3 abs (I think it's 3) up to 7-8 ABS.
    Or
    2.2 Increase spec points a little bit so they can get more parry.
  • OMFG ITS A GD ALB WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO BALANCE ANYTHING ON ALB!!! /facepalm
  • edited January 19 PM
    Shoke wrote: »
    Hmm, from the feedback I'd say:

    1. Increase Polearm peels duration to align them with warr/hero peels (20+ seconds snares side and back)
    2.1. Increase the ABS buff they have from 3 abs (I think it's 3) up to 7-8 ABS.
    Or
    2.2 Increase spec points a little bit so they can get more parry.

    I suggest the following:

    1. Increase spec points a little
    2. Change their RR5 to a 10 or 15 second duration 15% Melee and Magic first tier resist buff on a 10 or maybe 8 minute timer and give them snapshot as a class specific ability for free. The shorter timer is due to the short duration of the buff. The numbers could be tweaked.
    Post edited by Daelin on
  • Daelin wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    Hmm, from the feedback I'd say:

    1. Increase Polearm peels duration to align them with warr/hero peels (20+ seconds snares side and back)
    2.1. Increase the ABS buff they have from 3 abs (I think it's 3) up to 7-8 ABS.
    Or
    2.2 Increase spec points a little bit so they can get more parry.

    I suggest the following:

    1. Increase spec points a little
    2. Change their RR5 to a 10 or 15 second duration 15% Melee and Magic first tier resist buff on a 10 or maybe 8 minute timer and give them snapshot as a class specific ability for free. The shorter timer is due to the short duration of the buff. The numbers could be tweaked.

    I like this suggestion @Daelin. I don't mind the Arms current rr5 but the penalty attached to it is a bit unnecessary especially given that the block/parry boost is frontal only and can be strafed through with efficient mouse and movement coordination.
  • edited February 2 PM
    Armsman needs 2.5 spec points so does the pally. They are cursed with this double spec for 19 years now.
    Armsman not even with 2.5 spec will be able to reach warrior offence/defence - 50 sword/hammer that gives you full WS for both 1h and 2h, 42 shield 41 parry.
    A 2.5 armsman would barely have a 50 pole, 39 1h, 42 shield, 30 parry! Still massively lagging behind warriors in terms of WS and defence.
    Double spec had its justification back in the day when pole had slower speeds (equalized across the board with the other realms heavy tanks since ToA?? lol) + higher growth rates (arguably) - hardly the case for years, or a decade or more?

    Also when you cite better absorb on plate, don't forget evade 1 for both warriors and heroes. It just takes one evade in a fight to eliminate that absorb advantage.

    A boost of spec points of 2.5 and better growth rates for armsman is minimal at this state of the game.

    Post edited by Zyraxes on
  • Also, I would add that somehow arms is forced towards thrust spec most often than not which adds yet another ailment to the class. The formula for 1h thrust is 50/50 str/dex...Now add this to a class that has dex as a tertiary stat...

    Again, 2.5 spec for arms is bare minimum.
  • omg... armsmen aren't broken. They are vital to current alb 8 mans. if spec points are an issue stop speccing slam. Stop crutching on an anytime.
  • Idk why spec points are so important?

    Can always adjust growth rates on Pole style to account the loss of Parry tbh. Would make more sense than revisiting spec points.
  • so what is the best spec for an armsman
  • 36 sub/50 2h or pole/35 shield/31 parry/the remainder xbow
  • Llewd wrote: »
    36 sub/50 2h or pole/35 shield/31 parry/the remainder xbow

    You are assuming that "jo schmoe" every day average player can land side styles easily..in a zerg/BG setting 99% of the people who would be playing an Armsman still click abilities so thinking the would be able to land a side style on a moving target is a reach. And nobody said they are broken, they are just inferior to Hib/Mid versions once Pole and Plate were made obsolete imo.
  • change the lvl 50 side follow up in pole arm to a 129 pt dd (str based) from a 32 point bleed ever 4s for 20s.
  • if you run leggies can you then not train "mele damage"
  • Llewd wrote: »
    omg... armsmen aren't broken. They are vital to current alb 8 mans. if spec points are an issue stop speccing slam. Stop crutching on an anytime.

    Please read the whole thread. No one is stating armsman are "unplayable" or "broken". They're; however, severely lagging behind regarding the current state of the game and in comparison to the Hero and Warrior.

    This thread was put into place in order to re-invigorate the armsman class without making it overpowered. There have been a significant amount of posts in favor of slight tweaks to the class that would bring it back on par with the current meta.
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