Armsmen in 2018

We need a serious discussion about the Armsmen class.

This class is incredibly difficult to play circa the resent patches. It's nearly impossible to solo on and can really only be utilized in group/zerg gameplay as a peeler/weak dps dealer.

This class used to be playable during the ToA release, however, during the last 10 years of patches, has collected dust and is less than mediocre in todays game.

The Armsman class needs upgraded/polished to deal with today's game.
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Comments

  • The main tanks of all 3 realms should be THE main melee damage dealers.
  • Yeah. Too much snare and st and armsman really have no way to deal with it. No charge, no range interupt, really nothing but plate which is pretty sub par at this point with all the abs debuff and at debuff stuff out.
  • Totally agree with all of the above heavy melee has been neglected on all realms with armsman being the weakest out of all 3 I personally prefer my warrior out of all 3 for surviability and dps but arms is definetly the weakest haven’t played my hero for a long time but can’t comment
  • Allow me Brut:
    Hero
    1. Make the hero a mino for max damage
    2. Template it to the tune of somewhere between an arm and a leg.
    3. Use your second otherwise useless second account to buff it.
    4. Be prepared to accept dying at the rate of 9 in 10 "solo" fights.
  • Sounds about right for heavy tanks. Used to be able to get most stuff down to 50% in a slam duration. Now lucky to get them down to 80.
  • All heavy tanks need a boost.

    Had no idea armsman didn't have charge. Silly.

    Wait, it can't be...a mid agreeing that an alb needs some loving! The sky is falling.

    Say something rationale and look at what might happen!
  • edited November 2018 PM
    I think part of the problem with heavy tanks not dealing out as much DPS has more to do with gear (conversions, ablatives, IP gloves, etc.) than the actual class. Granted, they are the easiest classes to kite against due to no ranged abilities. Maybe giving them a single target taunt at 1500 range and/or making their cone taunt interrupt in RvR would help. Adding some utility with crossbow / throw weapons / short bows could be cool.

    Edit: spelling.
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
  • Years ago I actually killed someone with my armsman’s crossbow while rooted when a runemaster at very low health was running away. Yes, it was old frontiers. This wouldn’t happen nowadays.
  • No cause your crossbow would probably have healed him for 300 hps instead lol
  • edited November 2018 PM
    I'd try three things:

    1. Do a major review of all new roots, snares, diseases, and nearsights added within the past few years. Some could stand to be removed, and are just floating around as excess in already strong lines.
    2. Review procs and charges. Some procs are a lot better than others, some are very weak.
    3. Xbow/Thrown - spruce up these lines. Xbow could get some special shots; Thrown could function like BM Throw Weapon, with a disarm that only applies to your thrown slot and goes down as you spec up. E.g. Throw I has a 12s timer, Throw X has 2s, etc. Would do decent DPS overall, and add bonus damage from the back. Maybe bring Moose timer to 15m if it's not that already.

    For Arms/Pal alone, look into giving more growth rate and style effects for 2h and Pole, to comp for dual speccing. But not too much.
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • i agree with Heavy tanks needing something.

    its pretty sad that the highest AF class in the game is a cloth wearer.
  • null
    You’re probably right. lol
  • Hopefully we can agree on some "polishing" for Heavy Tanks that BS will also agree on. It's so frustrating playing a 11L9 Armsman and getting absolutely destroyed by any class with a HoT.

    Shoot, I even got handled by a rr5/6 warrior simply because of better weapon skill/shield/parry.

    I understand I'm no where near the "best" solo'er, nor even competitive in the topic, however Armsmen are simply subpar all around.

    They can't "tank" anymore, they don't deal the highest dps, they really need an upgrade and after all of the assassin patches, I think it's time for Heavy's to get a bit of love.
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    I'd try three things:

    1. Do a major review of all new roots, snares, diseases, and nearsights added within the past few years. Some could stand to be removed, and are just floating around as excess in already strong lines.
    2. Review procs and charges. Some procs are a lot better than others, some are very weak.
    3. Xbow/Thrown - spruce up these lines. Xbow could get some special shots; Thrown could function like BM Throw Weapon, with a disarm that only applies to your thrown slot and goes down as you spec up. E.g. Throw I has a 12s timer, Throw X has 2s, etc. Would do decent DPS overall, and add bonus damage from the back. Maybe bring Moose timer to 15m if it's not that already.

    For Arms/Pal alone, look into giving more growth rate and style effects for 2h and Pole, to comp for dual speccing. But not too much.

    I love the last idea. Higher growth rate and maybe some unique style effects in 2h/Pole. It's difficult needing to sub spec. I rely heavier on moparry and moblock and can manage because of my RR. Lower rr armsmen however don't have that luxury and suffer because of it.
  • Based on the current state of the game, I think since Armsmen have to subspec weapon for twohand/polearms, then at least they should have autotrain across all three weapon types as opposed to just two. Paladins should have this as well. Also, Armsmen should have a shield spec ability like Warriors and Heroes at lower than 45 shield. I'm not sure what kind of ability it should be but it seems odd they don't have one.
  • Based on the current state of the game, I think since Armsmen have to subspec weapon for twohand/polearms, then at least they should have autotrain across all three weapon types as opposed to just two. Paladins should have this as well. Also, Armsmen should have a shield spec ability like Warriors and Heroes at lower than 45 shield. I'm not sure what kind of ability it should be but it seems odd they don't have one.

    I can support the autotrain concept. Also I'd like to see something in the shield line as well. It's frustrating playing a tank and getting handled by nearly every class.

    Outside of group/zerg play there really isn't a place for the Armsman. Makes me laugh thinking of the assassin threads complaining about a "30%" nerf with the last patch and yet they can 100% me still.
  • Yeah. My armsman is only rr5 and I can barely kill much of anything. And I have an awesome template. Granted I’m not the best player in the world, but I should be able to at least kill an assasin or archer who doesn’t open with a perf or bow, alas, it is not the case
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Yeah. My armsman is only rr5 and I can barely kill much of anything. And I have an awesome template. Granted I’m not the best player in the world, but I should be able to at least kill an assasin or archer who doesn’t open with a perf or bow, alas, it is not the case

    Yeah, even amongst the 3 Heavy Tanks there is hardly any reason to roll an armsman compared to a hero or warrior.

    Unless I'm fighting a caster, there is a very low probability that I'd win a fight solo.

    Aside from running in a zerg/group, Armsman are incredibly subpar, and pretty much any class can compete in a zerg/group.

    I would like to see something unique to Armsmen such as higher growth rates in 2h/pole, a unique shield ability, possibly removing snapshot from 25xbow and giving it as a class ability, just something to make armsmen slightly better than where we currently are.
  • Throw shield would be cool. Disarms your ability to block but stuns the opponent for a few seconds. Makes sense too cause if someone threw a shield at me and hit me in the head, I’d be a little stunned too
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Throw shield would be cool. Disarms your ability to block but stuns the opponent for a few seconds. Makes sense too cause if someone threw a shield at me and hit me in the head, I’d be a little stunned too

    Haha that'd be funny.

    I really don't think Armsmen even need a "patch" to hotfix. Just a little bit of improvement. Plate absorb/AF is hardly significant anymore with all of the buffs/debuffs out there.

    Having to subspec our dps type really hurts our defenses. The best we can get out of parry is around 27 absolutely making MoParry a necessity if you want to do anything outside of group/zerg.

    It would be nice for polearm/2h to see increased growth rates, slightly higher dps and better defense specifically for armsmen.
  • The gear ablatives heal procs have been getting out of control plus most groups on all realms have a minimum of 3 heal classes running in there groups that can output some form of heal.
    On most realms you could put out a max of 5 classes that can put out some form of heal.
    This has impacted damage from melee trains unless you have significant interupts you cannot outdamage most heal trains in the game unless maybe running a light tank train with a debuff assist with leggie weapons.
    Obviiusly this has shown up most significantly on heavy tanks mainly in dedicated tank trains in groups but also in solo and small man.
    My solution would be to give all heavy tanks det 9 as a passive.
    Most dps on heavy tanks can only be increased by mastery of pain or increasing strength over 400 though I believe this has diminishing returns.
    With det 9 being a standard heavy tanks would get a new ra master of melee which would increase melee damage and be a complement to mastery of pain.
    This would be rather like the caster ra master of Magery but melee based .
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Old days and old RAs I used to beat shades and blades on my Armsman. I got a friend to start playing this game back then when he saw me solo 2 luri shades at the same time and beat them at amg in old emain
    Post edited by Keltorius on
  • Brut wrote: »
    The gear ablatives heal procs have been getting out of control plus most groups on all realms have a minimum of 3 heal classes running in there groups that can output some form of heal.
    On most realms you could put out a max of 5 classes that can put out some form of heal.
    This has impacted damage from melee trains unless you have significant interupts you cannot outdamage most heal trains in the game unless maybe running a light tank train with a debuff assist with leggie weapons.
    Obviiusly this has shown up most significantly on heavy tanks mainly in dedicated tank trains in groups but also in solo and small man.
    My solution would be to give all heavy tanks det 9 as a passive.
    Most dps on heavy tanks can only be increased by mastery of pain or increasing strength over 400 though I believe this has diminishing returns.
    With det 9 being a standard heavy tanks would get a new ra master of melee which would increase melee damage and be a complement to mastery of pain.
    This would be rather like the caster ra master of Magery but melee based .

    That's actually a really good idea Brut, didn't even think about a mastery of magery type RA for tanks to spec in. I would support that.
  • Or make heavy tank melee like a spell where there isn’t a huge variance and more consistent
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Or make heavy tank melee like a spell where there isn’t a huge variance and more consistent

    Yeah, I remember bringing this up before. There seems to be little rhyme or reason behind the damage variance (anywhere from 250-300+ dps).
  • edited November 2018 PM
    BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Or make heavy tank melee like a spell where there isn’t a huge variance and more consistent

    Yeah, I remember bringing this up before. There seems to be little rhyme or reason behind the damage variance (anywhere from 250-300+ dps).

    I think melee damage variance has to do with which piece of armor is being hit. I don't know the details but this could be tested by using the Vampiir Pierce styles which target specific pieces.

    Edit: looks like there is a random component in calculating melee damage based on this thread http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?215598-Damage-Variance-Melee-vs-Magic.
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Or make heavy tank melee like a spell where there isn’t a huge variance and more consistent

    Yeah, I remember bringing this up before. There seems to be little rhyme or reason behind the damage variance (anywhere from 250-300+ dps).

    I think melee damage variance has to do with which piece of armor is being hit. I don't know the details but this could be tested by using the Vampiir Pierce styles which target specific pieces.

    Edit: looks like there is a random component in calculating melee damage based on this thread http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?215598-Damage-Variance-Melee-vs-Magic.

    Hah, thanks Beetle, I know I made a thread about that some time ago.
  • Brut wrote: »
    The gear ablatives heal procs have been getting out of control plus most groups on all realms have a minimum of 3 heal classes running in there groups that can output some form of heal.
    On most realms you could put out a max of 5 classes that can put out some form of heal.
    This has impacted damage from melee trains unless you have significant interupts you cannot outdamage most heal trains in the game unless maybe running a light tank train with a debuff assist with leggie weapons.
    Obviiusly this has shown up most significantly on heavy tanks mainly in dedicated tank trains in groups but also in solo and small man.
    My solution would be to give all heavy tanks det 9 as a passive.
    Most dps on heavy tanks can only be increased by mastery of pain or increasing strength over 400 though I believe this has diminishing returns.
    With det 9 being a standard heavy tanks would get a new ra master of melee which would increase melee damage and be a complement to mastery of pain.
    This would be rather like the caster ra master of Magery but melee based .

    are you serious ?
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • i just think that armsmen shouldn't be a 2.0 spec points class but should have 2.1 or 2.2 spec points class to compensate for their need to dual spec...

    does that sound reasonable ?
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • and i think people underestimate how good plate it. people mention ABS debuffs etc. you can't reduce plate ABS to zero but you can certainly reduce other armour type ABS to zero. and the AF on plate...

    warriors have lower ABS and AF than armsmen, but it's easier to spec them ...
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • That's a totally meaningless distinction. If Warrs are debuffed to 0% absorb, arms go down to 6%. Theyd take all of 6% less damage from melee.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    That's a totally meaningless distinction. If Warrs are debuffed to 0% absorb, arms go down to 6%. Theyd take all of 6% less damage from melee.

    i'll take 6 % less damage in any scenario.
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • i never understood why anything above cloth was 102 AF per piece. maybe plate should be 110-120 AF ?
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    I'd try three things:

    1. Do a major review of all new roots, snares, diseases, and nearsights added within the past few years. Some could stand to be removed, and are just floating around as excess in already strong lines.
    2. Review procs and charges. Some procs are a lot better than others, some are very weak.
    3. Xbow/Thrown - spruce up these lines. Xbow could get some special shots; Thrown could function like BM Throw Weapon, with a disarm that only applies to your thrown slot and goes down as you spec up. E.g. Throw I has a 12s timer, Throw X has 2s, etc. Would do decent DPS overall, and add bonus damage from the back. Maybe bring Moose timer to 15m if it's not that already.

    For Arms/Pal alone, look into giving more growth rate and style effects for 2h and Pole, to comp for dual speccing. But not too much.

    I love the last idea. Higher growth rate and maybe some unique style effects in 2h/Pole. It's difficult needing to sub spec. I rely heavier on moparry and moblock and can manage because of my RR. Lower rr armsmen however don't have that luxury and suffer because of it.

    Tbh I think playing around with styles is the way to go. I've always advocated for adjusting styles, especially base style lines that are shared across different classes (slash, 2H, etc,) into something unique for each class through different effects. For example, giving Arms polearm styles an effect that reduces block/parry/evade rate due to it's long reach, or giving Pally 2H styles healing/defensive bonuses similar to Friars to keep in tune with the theme of the class. Of course, there would be a lot of balance and value adjustments going into this, but I think it's not only one way to bring underperforming classes up to par, but also allow for more options regarding spec for classes that are often forced into one "meta" spec, as well as further add to the flavor and uniqueness of each class.
    Former Thid Pro Soloer. Current Molvik Pro Soloer.
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/redattack
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Muylae wrote: »
    Ylazul wrote: »
    That's a totally meaningless distinction. If Warrs are debuffed to 0% absorb, arms go down to 6%. Theyd take all of 6% less damage from melee.

    i'll take 6 % less damage in any scenario.

    Except in the scenario where you have to give up nearly 0.4 spec points/level for the "privilege"
    Post edited by Ylazul on
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • edited November 2018 PM
    this thread sound makes it sound like Armsmen are under performing?
    Brut wrote: »
    Totally agree with all of the above heavy melee has been neglected on all realms with armsman being the weakest out of all 3 I personally prefer my warrior out of all 3 for surviability and dps but arms is definetly the weakest haven’t played my hero for a long time but can’t comment

    care to explain how/why armsmen is the weakest?

    - they have the best rr5 (full movement, increased movement with vest proc with ability to deal damage - unlike their counterparts)
    - multiple classes to reset stun immunity so they can peel/re slam/kill (theurg rr5 / cleric rr5 / ST / ST)
    - best interupt classes at their side (again this is a choice if you run minstrel/theurg)
    - heretic rr5 / paladin celerity+af / necro magic ablative (again this is a choice)
    - best class cloak /use


    Post edited by tald on
  • Minstrels/Theurgs aren't the best interrupt classes, but maybe the most commonly run among the best.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • I am kinda torn on this matter, since this is already third topic on Armsman upgrades. I've been playing Hero several years ago up to rr8 (before rp buffs), plus some Warrior recently. These days on Warrior I didn't feel crap, altho shield in current solo "meta" worth less due lots of DW classes, years ago tanks was definitely more capable, but still playable. I still think they can be extremely tanky, just look at Hib climbing groups, they almost impossible to kill, not like vamps. Fury/Magic resists passively makes them pretty capable, so I think DPS should always be lower then light tanks.

    Item diversity however is always nice, but thats not an Armsman only issue, several specs on multiple realms have some of the worse items, so it's always an option, but that was same when dragon items came in. Armsmans solo capability I think mainly got worse because of other classes got significantly better, namely the stealthers/archers. I really, really fear if we buff Heavy Tanks, we will overdo it just like other classes. Theres been some pretty good and moderate suggestions here, hope we will fall to that category, I see no point in buffs that result years of nerfs afterwards. Maybe autotrain on parry, or someone suggested a shield spec "shield throw" might help on the recent kiting game with a cooldown, and possibly disabling block chance for a while unlike throw weapons weapon drop. I think that route is the way to make tanks a bit more capable in lot's of situations, without them getting OP on others. However I would love if the very very minimal diversity between Heavy Tanks would stay as it is, I do not want 50 1h Armsmans, mooseing spear warriors, and plate wearing Heroes.

    Also tanks, don't forget to use Rampage, its really nice, and i see very few tanks actually using it the way they should, if at all. Of course this only goes to people who notice themselves use it rarely.
  • Tald I’m not gonna get into a alb mid hib slagging Match here.
    The thread is about heavy tanks in general .
    In my opinion and that’s my opinion I believe out of all 3 classes the arms is the weakest and here’s my reasoning and why I personally feel that.
    Out of the two classes I regulary play armsman and warrior the armsman has the lower dps I haven’t played my hero for a while so can’t comment.
    The rr5 used to be a good rr5 when you had the stun off the party chain but it’s not so good now but with the armsman it’s a penalty to survuvalbility after it’s down.
    Plate seems to be not as good a protection as it was I feel a lot more able to survive stuff on my warrior and he’s half the rr of my armsman.
    Now that might be the healing power on mid with my template there or it might be that plate ain’t what it used to be I really don’t know but that’s how I feel.
    And yes Mulae I am serious
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Brut wrote: »
    Tald I’m not gonna get into a alb mid hib slagging Match here.
    The thread is about heavy tanks in general .
    In my opinion and that’s my opinion I believe out of all 3 classes the arms is the weakest and here’s my reasoning and why I personally feel that.
    Out of the two classes I regulary play armsman and warrior the armsman has the lower dps I haven’t played my hero for a while so can’t comment.
    The rr5 used to be a good rr5 when you had the stun off the party chain but it’s not so good now but with the armsman it’s a penalty to survuvalbility after it’s down.
    Plate seems to be not as good a protection as it was I feel a lot more able to survive stuff on my warrior and he’s half the rr of my armsman.
    Now that might be the healing power on mid with my template there or it might be that plate ain’t what it used to be I really don’t know but that’s how I feel.
    And yes Mulae I am serious

    Lower DPS and Plate not working, wtf? Compare 2 Epic armor, epic weapon, same RAs, same stats. Warrior should not have more DPS, and Plate should absorb more dmg, its simple, I doubt they bugged those, at least should not.

    Edit: And make sure you use same GR styles.
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Don't get me wrong, I wont say Arms is the best Tank, and they all should be somewhat similar power level with different flavors, but saying Plate is useless is an overstatement, at best maybe it's not enough compensation, I should play Arms to say that exactly. However Mercs with DT and stuff are a very powerful competition for solo play in Albion as visible.
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • I never said plate was useless
  • Brut wrote: »
    I never said plate was useless

    Sorry, you didn't, someone maybe on previous topic did. :)
  • As I’ve stated gavner I was asked for my opinion from tald if you don’t like my opinion that’s fine.
    And I respect your right to not listen to me that’s also cool.
    It’s how I see it through my eyes that’s what the forums are for I thought to convey people’s ideas and opinions whether they play paper daoc or the real world
    It’s how we get to a consensus on something.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    @Brut
    I digested previously, I have 0 agenda vs Heavy Tanks, I played them for years. Didn't mean to jump on you on plate matter, probably I was lil irritated on other people saying it's useless, it wasn't towards you. More absorb is always good in my opinion, and as said, to say that it's enough compensation, it needs heavy testing between all three tanks, which here none would like to do without bias. I also stated maybe something can be, and should be done to bring tanks on similar power level, IF there's too much power level difference between them.

    Just do it smart. Don't get the false assumption of me hating Armsmans, but plate is definitely a nice tool to have, the argument here is maybe it isn't enough, thats all. But that goes beyond my knowledge to know for sure, as I've played only Heros/Warriors, and only Pal on alb.

    P.S.: Said sorry, still am, didn't want to misrepresent your statement. My bad.
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • Oh one other thing the mastery of melee was for all heavy melee classes on all 3 realms same for free det 9.
  • Wow the last two threads I have just read, people have actually apologized and said they were wrong.

    What are these boards coming to??

    Good stuff, keep up the good work. We might not all agree on individual playstyle, class, armour, etc...but we all agree that we want this game to continue to work.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    @Jak
    I think we all want this game to continue to rule. :)

    There been too much drama, and realm tearing recently on forums, I may be wrong on many things, but I rather say sorry, or change my view then to win internet arguments. I would be happy if we can get past realm hate in the future.

    One things for sure, people in these boards for sure passionate, being right or not.

    The only thing still gets on my nerves is starting sentences with "objectively" on a clearly subjective matter. :D
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    I have suggested determination be granted on the level weapon is specialized.

    More Det granted the higher your weapon spec. Not only for HT but for all classes.

    Weather this is full Det 9 @ 45-50 weapon spec for all class or just HT and others would get Det 5-7 and allowed to make up the difference via realm points (to a cap), is debatable.

    (Ps I've also suggested reworking of xbow, TW, and short bow) toot toot
    Post edited by Abattoir on
  • They retooled Warriors agreed that Armsman could use a look in 2K19. Something to help interrupt at range maybe a taunt or what about going the “warcry” route.
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