Armsman class upgrade 2018

Hey guys, I'd like to start a thread introducing possible upgrades to the Armsman class for next patch if possible. All suggestions are welcome.

Honestly I don't know what could be done to improve this class from where it currently is, unfortunately it's subpar in comparison to the other two heavy tanks and especially against light tanks.

Plate armor was the defining feature and, years ago, made the Armsman unique. In today's DAoC however plate armor is hardly a unique or beneficial feature; outside of paladins that is because they have an armor factor chant.

So what can we do to improve the Armsman and make it a more viable class in 2018? Maybe unique styles in combat? We're supposed to be the soldiers of Albion yet are lackluster all around. Possibly buffing up AF/Abs for the Armsman class specifically?
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Comments

  • edited September 2018 PM
    Personaly i dont think more classes should be buffed right now, however there are quite a few classes that could use a strike or 2 with the nerfbat.

    All this power creep that have happend with items and class changes need to be scaled back and i dont think we need more power creep. After that if some classes still needs buffing then thats the right time imo, but not now.

    Im sure someone will tell me how wrong i am cause they enjoy getting stronger and stronger, however my opnion will stay the same, all this buffing of everything will mess more up then it fixes.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • Vrisslar wrote: »
    Personaly i dont think more classes should be buffed right now, however there are quite a few classes that could use a strike or 2 with the nerfbat.

    All this power creep that have happend with items and class changes need to be scaled back and i dont think we need more power creep. After that if some classes still needs buffing then thats the right time imo, but not now.

    Im sure someone will tell me how wrong i am cause they enjoy getting stronger and stronger, however my opnion will stay the same, all this buffing of everything will mess more up then it fixes.

  • Would it be going too far to give Armsman the ability to use ANY polearm damage type if they spec'd in polearm? Similiar to Hibernian Large Weaponry where the trade-off is instead of hib having access to thrust/crush/slash they only have access to 2/3 but they get to go moose every 30mins...

    I understand how ridiculous sub-speccing is, but I'm afraid if they got rid of that for Albion then it would make paladins and armsmen too strong. And if they got rid of sub-speccing for JUST armsman, then they would probably have to give the warrior a little /use ability to compensate them for now not having their perk (being able to not sub-spec and swap between 1 and 2h)
  • Plate inst what it used to be now that everyone is hitting for 450+ a swing.
    ~Westies
  • I really don't think that buffing one realms class would give any benefit, rather then start producing more and more OP classes, and washing away all the little class diversity that still exist. I have rr8+ hero, playing warrior too, I love em both for different reasons, but they all pretty capable, and nice spot I think. Of course there are more OPed classes, but I don't feel that they are in a bad spot, and dueling several arms regardless not having one I feel they also fit as a nice heavy tank. I also vote on nerfing the classes that clearly too powerfull instead.

    DAoC is great in class diversity, giving arms anything begs the question why mid and hib don't get plate, why alb and mid doesn't get moose then, why alb and hib don't get same spec 1h as 2h... list can go on, until we reach to a point where why tanks doesn't get DW or free RAs, and why light tanks doesn't get plate either?! Why would anyone remove the unique things about their class, I don't get it.

    If Plate so crappy, give it to everyone or give it up for a moose or spec line. I doub't many would like that. For me, I would happily wear plate with my warrior for a few skill points for arms, go for it guys! But I want Pole too and snap shot then.
  • I would give up plate for moose form in a heartbeat.
  • I’ve got the perfect solution, give armsman siege buff and ST
  • ST for Arms would be gamechanging.
    ~Westies
  • I just rolled an arms to look at their polearm spec and it's actually pretty sexy. Very many high bleeds that are easily obtainable in combat with slam or strafing, and an anytime bleed/ASR combo.. Basically can keep bleed on a person an entire fight!! And a high RR arms only needs to spec 29 slash for amethyst slash anytime which imo is an amazing style. If they can find a nice template for thrust as well than the 34 anytime style for thrust is probably the best any time in the game across the board for heavies?

    Anyways @Amp_Phetamine they honestly look pretty good on paper, and like I said at high RR I can't see much wrong with them. Maybe give them a slight WS boost when wielding s/s? That's the only area where I see them lacking
  • @Armagedden Then so do heros. My reason was, if we want some uniqueness, no class can have it all, BM can't have DT or chain, so Merc cant have Tripple Wield (or well rr5 is.. nm). Still, reasoning that keeping all advantages of a class but getting other classes advantages too is simply a bad route. One will always envy other classes bonuses at the end of the day.

    Any class can get 2h PAd for 1.3k with mezz potion to get stunn chained till 20% - or guaranteed dead if caster - to start a fight. I think we rather need to look up why 90% of solo/small man population playing stealthers, instead of buffing all other class one by one. :)

    Hope the enormous stealther community won't jump on me, but seriously, there are more stealthers then trees in hibernia. :P
  • edited September 2018 PM
    @Gavner I see your point and it's hard to ask Broadsword to do anything without going over the top, but I really would like to see armsmen get something. But your nod at OP-ness with assassins and other classes reminded me that just about every other class in the game recently got some love (all over the top TBH) and heavies have not been touched yet. So I definitely see them struggle sometimes when it comes to fights now-a-days, especially 1v1s. All other classes have updated abilities and heavies have had the same bag of tricks since as far as I can remember
    Post edited by Armagedden on
  • edited September 2018 PM
    @Armagedden I think you get it, but at a same point Arms getting anything will result in all Heavy Tanks get something, which probably would go over the top atm. All heavy tanks been reworked several years ago (the time they got fury etc..). I am against going this trend again, cba to login 2 years later to see even more classes raped to be flavour of the month. Heavy Tanks far from being crap, sure they can't defeat every single class, but that would only be possible if every realm had 1 class and they would be the same. I rather see more classes balanced around their power level, I just don't think its possible without major backlash, since most people prefer to play OP classes regardless of what game we talk about.

    Playing a class alot often reward player with better understanding, knowing what to do in situations against various of enemies, which I find fun. Heavy tanks played well goes into that category also.

    Problem comes when you take away players ability to ACT. Same as in card games it's not fun if you can't do anything to react. This is why most of casters doesnt bother to small man/solo with melee visiables getting lower and lower in numbers also, or choose to zerg instead, because they feel week. It's frustrating not being able to do anything in a fight, so I don't think its an arms problem, rather a visiable problem atm. Edit: Of course disregarding a selective few what still viable, but the diversity is low for sure.
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • Oh I absolutely agree with both of you @Gavner and @Armagedden. Most heavy tanks are kind of vanilla but the armsman is completely bland, about as vanilla as it comes.

    I'm not petitioning for the class to get some super cool upgrade or ability that makes it fotm or incredibly OP, just a little tweaking to spice the class up a bit. Some good ideas I've seen are to make snapshot free to use (currently you need to spec 25? into xbow... waste of points) and the best idea I've seen, although has potential to be OP, would be to make polearm and two-handed non-sub spec dependent for the armsman class alone (it'd be way overpowered if pally's had access to this, sorry to the pally's out there).

    If pole/two-handed were independent of sub-spec it'd at least give us access to more weapons. So nothing crazy, no introduction of a morph or innate class ability that makes the armsman stupid OP for any duration of time, but it'd help give the class a bit more flavor and utility.
  • edited September 2018 PM
    I'm not petitioning for the class to get some super cool upgrade or ability that makes it fotm or incredibly OP, just a little tweaking to spice the class up a bit. Some good ideas I've seen are to make snapshot free to use (currently you need to spec 25? into xbow... waste of points) and the best idea I've seen, although has potential to be OP, would be to make polearm and two-handed non-sub spec dependent for the armsman class alone (it'd be way overpowered if pally's had access to this, sorry to the pally's out there).

    So basicly you want either a free interupt ability or hib LW + thrust thrown in on top ? To me that looks like a super cool upgrade.

    Now that assassins have been brought up, im not sure who thought it was a great idea on a high dmg, debuffing, stealth class that can disengage combat when ever they want with vanish to give them a instant teleport ability, give them more dmg , /use % based heals, easier to use mess and so on, maybe that idea should be rethought. Personaly i dont like my assassins anymore they seem boring and easy.

    I enjoy both my armsmen's and i wish instead of buffing or changing the heavies, that broadsword would rethink all of the buffing thats been done to items and classes in the last few years and actualy, scale back / nerf and remove the mistakes that have been made.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • Vrisslar wrote: »
    I'm not petitioning for the class to get some super cool upgrade or ability that makes it fotm or incredibly OP, just a little tweaking to spice the class up a bit. Some good ideas I've seen are to make snapshot free to use (currently you need to spec 25? into xbow... waste of points) and the best idea I've seen, although has potential to be OP, would be to make polearm and two-handed non-sub spec dependent for the armsman class alone (it'd be way overpowered if pally's had access to this, sorry to the pally's out there).

    So basicly you want either a free interupt ability or hib LW + thrust thrown in on top ? To me that looks like a super cool upgrade.

    Now that assassins have been brought up, im not sure who thought it was a great idea on a high dmg, debuffing, stealth class that can disengage combat when ever they want with vanish to give them a instant teleport ability, give them more dmg , /use % based heals, easier to use mess and so on, maybe that idea should be rethought. Personaly i dont like my assassins anymore they seem boring and easy.

    I enjoy both my armsmen's and i wish instead of buffing or changing the heavies, that broadsword would rethink all of the buffing thats been done to items and classes in the last few years and actualy, scale back / nerf and remove the mistakes that have been made.

    Certainly it wouldn't be egregiously over powered. The independent polearm/two-handed lines is definitely pushing the limit in terms of what type of upgrade would be reasonable. Removing the specialization requirement for snapshot would actually make the ability useful. When was the last time you saw anything use xbow outside of pulling mobs in pve?

    That or the xbow line can be revamped to make it actually desirable to spec into.

    But that's just my 2cents. I don't even know if it'd actually be possible to alter the polearm/two-handed lines to be independent of sub-spec. Having access to all three damage types would certainly make the Armsman unique; however, i'd say it's a stretch considering it over powered.
  • edited September 2018 PM
    Certainly it wouldn't be egregiously over powered. The independent polearm/two-handed lines is definitely pushing the limit in terms of what type of upgrade would be reasonable. Removing the specialization requirement for snapshot would actually make the ability useful. When was the last time you saw anything use xbow outside of pulling mobs in pve?

    When was the last time a warrior specced in or used throw weapons ? Personally i dont think people not speccing in the xbow line justify giving 1 heavy tank a free on the move range interupt every 10 mins.
    Post edited by Vrisslar on
  • Vrisslar wrote: »
    Certainly it wouldn't be egregiously over powered. The independent polearm/two-handed lines is definitely pushing the limit in terms of what type of upgrade would be reasonable. Removing the specialization requirement for snapshot would actually make the ability useful. When was the last time you saw anything use xbow outside of pulling mobs in pve?

    When was the last time a warrior specced in or used throw weapons ? Personally i dont think people not speccing in the xbow line justify giving 1 heavy tank a free on the move range interupt every 10 mins.

    Well that's why I started the thread. To brainstorm ideas. If allowing snapshot as an innate ability is too powerful we can certainly discuss alterations.

    I wouldn't be opposed to making throw weapon for warriors or short bow for heros actually useful either.

    Also the 10 min reuse timer for snap shot makes perfect sense at the moment because it requires 25 spec points to earn. If the ability was made free I could definitely see the timer being increased to 15+ minutes.
  • Free snapshot on 15 RUT I would be totally cool with.
  • Koredan wrote: »
    Free snapshot on 15 RUT I would be totally cool with.

    same, I'm completely okay with changing things a bit to prevent OP'd. IF snapshot is removed from xbow line and given for free, increase the RUT from 10 to 15 minutes.

    Is this a plausible idea @Carol_Broadsword?
  • Another way to improve arms without buffing class is to introduce more polearm options. There aren't a lot of decent slash/crush polearms -- which means more armsman are specced thrust which is more difficult to template and makes you lose item utility.
  • Koredan wrote: »
    Another way to improve arms without buffing class is to introduce more polearm options. There aren't a lot of decent slash/crush polearms -- which means more armsman are specced thrust which is more difficult to template and makes you lose item utility.

    That is a complaint I've made a few times to BS. The weapon choice for crush and slash in the polearm line is lacking certainly. Other than leggies the only two polearms I use that I've found to be remotely beneficial are CL15 and Pictslayer. Astral Mordent is 3rd but it's meh in my opinion.
  • Celerity proc polearm would be nice.


    I did try pure pole half ogre arms, possibly the worst straight up melee toon I have played.
    2200 ws with 50 pole. From what I remember the stun was 2 stage back style, just horrid

    Never like the way heavies where always pushed to 42 spec slam bots. Could of done some much more with the class
  • Did they not change snap shot? Used to be move when firing and changed to aoe root.
  • Did they not change snap shot? Used to be move when firing and changed to aoe root.

    I'd have to check tbh. Afaik snap shot allows for firing while moving.
  • Celerity proc polearm would be nice.


    I did try pure pole half ogre arms, possibly the worst straight up melee toon I have played.
    2200 ws with 50 pole. From what I remember the stun was 2 stage back style, just horrid

    Never like the way heavies where always pushed to 42 spec slam bots. Could of done some much more with the class

    Lol I did this once before. It's worthless unless you just run in zerg. 42 shield is such a staple for heavies it'd be idiotic not to spec it. Worse case scenario you can spec for side stun (35?) but really, what's the point of stopping there.
  • Although I’d like the arms to get something I dont see snapshot somthing I can wrap my head around. This skill can literally shut down any ranged character. As an arms you can take a crap ton of damage and negate damage like all heavys. However having that and snap shot leave this question for me. What is to prevent said armsman to run into battle interupt and pull out crossbow and pretty much run around an shooting? 1vx really is not my issue 1v1 would put arms way above all other heavys an all ranged people. I also have no suggestion for them, giving a spec skill for ra or free is way over the top. Imagine all heavys have access to a moving interupt.
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    Although I’d like the arms to get something I dont see snapshot somthing I can wrap my head around. This skill can literally shut down any ranged character. As an arms you can take a crap ton of damage and negate damage like all heavys. However having that and snap shot leave this question for me. What is to prevent said armsman to run into battle interupt and pull out crossbow and pretty much run around an shooting? 1vx really is not my issue 1v1 would put arms way above all other heavys an all ranged people. I also have no suggestion for them, giving a spec skill for ra or free is way over the top. Imagine all heavys have access to a moving interupt.

    What if it was increased to a 15-20 minute RUT? Would be useful every 3-4 fights.
  • Its kind of what they did with remedy, hib ns got it, next all assassins, then all archers. Are you willing to have this happen to the arms?
  • 15-20 minutes in a Zerg is basically ensuring it’s up every fight as it’s at least that long most of the time
  • Be nice to see armsman get an aoe pushback rather like the warriors aoe grapple but instead of rooting your enemy’s you could push back any enemies in a frontal cone.
    Basically like a small aoe zephyr on a timer but would be awesome in Lord rooms and keep fights.
    The other thing I’d like to see on armsmen is the return of the stun off the parry chain and also seeing as all 3 realms got charge free I’d like to see armsmen get det 9 free as well just my two cents .
  • Each realms heavy tanks are all super boring. It wouls be nice to see other visi melee classes toned down.
  • as a rule atm, i think there is more stuff that needs nerfing than there is stuff that needs love.

    any love to anything just unbalances other stuff.

    so for most part, i think we need to talk about what needs nerfing, not about what needs love.

    and returning to original poster

    heavy tank vs light tank

    slam / light tank purges / engage / slam again / kill with 2h attacks ....in one vs one.



    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Armagedden wrote: »
    I just rolled an arms to look at their polearm spec and it's actually pretty sexy. Very many high bleeds that are easily obtainable in combat with slam or strafing, and an anytime bleed/ASR combo.. Basically can keep bleed on a person an entire fight!! And a high RR arms only needs to spec 29 slash for amethyst slash anytime which imo is an amazing style. If they can find a nice template for thrust as well than the 34 anytime style for thrust is probably the best any time in the game across the board for heavies?

    Anyways @Amp_Phetamine they honestly look pretty good on paper, and like I said at high RR I can't see much wrong with them. Maybe give them a slight WS boost when wielding s/s? That's the only area where I see them lacking

    as a savage, where it is almost impossible to reach 2k weaponskill, i'm not sure that a boost in weaponskill is right
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Armagedden wrote: »
    @Gavner I see your point and it's hard to ask Broadsword to do anything without going over the top, but I really would like to see armsmen get something. But your nod at OP-ness with assassins and other classes reminded me that just about every other class in the game recently got some love (all over the top TBH) and heavies have not been touched yet. So I definitely see them struggle sometimes when it comes to fights now-a-days, especially 1v1s. All other classes have updated abilities and heavies have had the same bag of tricks since as far as I can remember

    the two classes i play have only been nerfed. what love did warlocks and savages receive ?
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Each realms heavy tanks are all super boring. It wouls be nice to see other visi melee classes toned down.

    heavies can climb walls, light tanks can't.

    where is the logic that the highest armour class in the game (armsman) can climb a wall and the lightest class light tank armour (savages and berserkers) can't ?
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • edited September 2018 PM
    Dont think "Buff the char I play!" mentality will get us anywhere, but ruining balance even more. It's hard to evaluate a classes strength objectively, since we all play limited classes, and base our views on what we experience, including our subjective feelings. Any team should have more data to view it in a more objective manner. Average RP/Hours, Players counts of certain classes, etc. Still, often in games buffed characters easily end up overpowered, while DAoC have MANY classes making it even harder to balance properly without them loosing their uniqueness. Even items we recently make have great effect on some classes, so in a changing environment others will always end up in bottom (take a look at some of 1h hybrids after shield nerfs, and proc buffs, or vamps gaining power much faster nowdays, but thats just a few example).

    I don't see armsman having the worst spot of classes atm, but I may be wrong. There is very low presentation of certain classes for sure, and their efficiency. However I personally think its easier to tweak over-represented classes, but those can result in major community rage.

    Balancing however seem to be an easy job in our perspective (since we experience very minor part of the game, and have less data/doesn't care about them), its ain't that easy, and very few games can actually achieve it. Of course it's reasonable to voice our opinion, ask developers to look in the issues, but demanding instant answers, and huge buffs collectively will often result in even greater unbalance.

    Some balancing always will be needed, and I too feel like its already necessary, fighting same classes over and over can also be boring after a while, but I wouldn't pick just one class of one realm for a buffing, in case some counterparts of same classes really unrepresented, we definitely have larger power gaps between some classes.

    Edit: Maybe start looking around here first: http://www.excidio.net/herald/stats/class/
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • If anyone interested, took 5 min to make this sheet just for sept 3 and 10. Atm at work, so didnt have more time, but with more data and bigger sample it would be much more accurate.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GG2ZHdkV972ZpOJeRlwMTeK-JCEyeCJl/view?usp=sharing

    The biggest differences might be in soloing capabilities, but still worth to discuss.

  • edited September 2018 PM
    Armsman may be a bit low on population for sure, but as visiable melee in same realm, the Mercenary seem to be the reason why, because they excel in almost everything.

    Yet we can clearly tell most casters are completely useless in soloing, while assassins definitely strong in this matter, one may be the reason for others downfall, but that may be intended. It's also clear, that stealthers not just soloing also, yet overshadows most of other classes in this matter.

    All this tells me so little info still, which need further discussion. Any class that hits low in every regard is probably under-powered (Heretic, Valkyrie, Bainshee just to name a few), and a class that high in every regard, probably overpowered (NS, SB, Inf, Merc, Ranger etc) but there are many factor that needs considering, like:
    - Is there a much stronger alternative in same realm?
    - Is it only played less because less people find a classes design less fun? (for example VW and Reaver seem to be decent yet almost the lowest population)
    - A class less desirable in Groups? (Reaver again)
    - It's not clear how many percent of a classes player base even chose to solo on classes that capable of grouping too.
    - Casters whole another story, because very minority of them can solo efficiently, so player count and RP tells more.
    - Need to include Kills/Deaths, exclude lvl 50 farm bots and buff bots, etc..
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • Game needs balance and also class diversity , went mid solo spot couple of nights back 4 vamps and a mauler, think what I hated most was fighting a vamp them after fight shade jumps me. Purge down, opens with mezz poison and was like at 40 % after stun with almost 3500hits. For me sins need winding in, hidden class need some disadvantages.

    I mean look at poor wardens and minstrels surprised me, but guess with merc being OTT easy just to got fotm

    Oh can just say from trying to solo on a caster, vamp bolt off horse charge and dead is no fun
  • edited September 2018 PM
    Vamp for sure capable, but if you look at numbers, it isn't terribly overrepresented. They might be very capable, but for strict solo play/small man, NS probably still outperforms it. Strong but might not be the biggest problem. Maybe when they kill you with strictly spamming one button is more annoying. :) Not all does that tho, and casters dead to most of things that solo tbh.

    I never understood why warden was bashed back then, Celerity moved to castable(not like paladin), low 1h damage and shield useless against many targets now. It is strictly a support class now, still many plays it for that with decent results, so must be needed in groups at least. Same as minstrels, they definitely bad in many places, still surprised how many plays it.Lots of things to consider, but surely they lost being solo viable.

    Heres another way to look at archetypes:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EDg3cSagyoqz_KmVpDh8NmOqNm3zIp3C/view?usp=sharing

    Still very low amount of data, and many ways to look at them.
    Edit: Ofc archetype lines blurry on some classes :)
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • Is this strictly 50s?
  • Impressive Cleric numbers then
  • edited September 2018 PM
    Question is how many buff bots, and smite clerics are there, yet the best support to solo with! Not like thats a huge achievement. Altho if theres only 2 of them solo, then its pretty amazing :P

    Classes (and realms) so different its hard to make sure where are the issues at with this lacking data pool. Very under or overperforming classes surely easier to spot.
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • I would say in all honesty, class balance is pretty terrible current patch.

    Sins are a good example. You don't even have to hit the alpha strikes just mezz pot and side stun, seeing some crazy dps. My thane with 2700hits, will be on 30-50% after side stun , hybrids really feel the heat with recent changes.


    I have a rr10sb, rr8 and rr5 shade and rr5 inf. Would agree they are weak vs archer types, but to I don't get this also. Just seems pointless












  • Btw sorry for taking off topic, just saw 'Gavner' spreadsheets
  • @BackOfRackhams
    Still fairly accurate experiences. :)
  • If buffing armsman class is off the table I’d like to see the game reverted to pre ruined keeps and removal of towers and just start again.
    Too many things came in after that patch that messed up the game a complete reroll and single class updates on one realm at a time with community input plus free to play might kick start the game.
  • Nerfing a few classes already would put arms in a better state imho, also easier to nerf 4-5 class then buff 40 (not only arms have issues), its also very hard not to overdo buffs, so probably would worth to see where arms end up after some nerfs on other classes, then think about how could he close up to others if difference doesn't change.
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