Thoughts of a returning player.

Well I been back in DAOC for about a 2 months now. I have to say I am incredibly disappointed in this game. It saddens me that this game has gone down hill soo much. I have read posts and heard people say returning player campaigns just don't seem to work for some reason as players just don't stay. I thought I'd throw this up here so everyone can have a returning players perspective.

The problem I have found is the current player base. Its not the classes, its not even the fact an a rr1 player has 0% chance vs a rr10+ player. Free to play will not save this game. The player base has 2 types of players.

1) 8 mans who only take specific classes fully templated and generally have their on clique groups (who all scream about how zergs are soo bad lol).

2) zergs who all can join but mainly people with aoe's are given preferance within the bg to maximize rps.

The ladder isn't so bad for a returning player. However if there is no zerg because you have missed the dedicated zerg time for your realm you may as well log. I am not one to give up easily, so this is not one of those posts that say I'm cancelling sub. To put it into perspective how bad this can be for a returning player I have spent on numerous occassion's lfg for upwards of 8 hours before giving up and logging.

I know people are going to say well get a guild bla bla bla... I am in guilds however most guilds have their groups they run in. I think this problem is largely tied to the fact their is no more realm pride in this game. Honestly I had never played any other realm before prior to coming back this time. I had only played Midgard. Unfortunately I was forced to try and play other realms as finding groups in Midgard outside of zergs is impossible.

I have also noticed there is a lot of people who just realm swap to whichever is winning.. If you want people to be able to play which ever realm there should be some sort of lock out, and jack up the rps for taking tower/keeps however make it so you cant take them as a 8 man easily. This would encourage more keep/tower bgs and breath life into the game.

Maybe I'm just some stupid noob but I think its everyones responsibility to show some realm pride and remember this games rvrvr not 8v8v8. There needs to be more people leading more bgs. I am not trying to bash 8man groups, infact I'd hope to inspire you to take your talents with your 8 mans and expand it to leading a bg and dominate your enemies realm. Take their keeps, take their towers, leave none of them alive!

For those of you wondering I have templated multiple toons fully on multiple realms. I honestly don't know why I'm bothering to write this. I don't expect anything to change. Atleast I got it off my chest. Proceed to kill the game you guys enjoy so much and feel free to flame me hopefully i got through to one player so this was worth it.
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Comments

  • If you have so much promlems, switch to easy mode classes. If you need BGs, switch the realm to hib and play Vamp/mentalist ( OP ). If you need a Easy class which can compete solo, but isnt hib, play Necro or smitecleric ( no stealther could best those even with RR1 as a cleric.) if you dont want to switch realm,WL with 10% conversion is nice. with set amor hard to kill.
  • edited August 2018 PM
    @Yorkeys

    None of your points will solve his problems.
    Post edited by Stoertebecker on
  • edited August 2018 PM
    Thanks for sharing feel your frustrations on a certain level. Realm pride as you knew it is long gone. It’s hard to justify paying 15-30$ and only seeing 33% of what’s left.

    A lot of your points have been around forever and have been addressed to some degree. Hero pve keeps so they adjusted rps. The BG is what RVR is about and 8 mans have been that way since the OF.

    Also the stealth zerging FGs and sometimes 2fg of them are out of control, and will only expand when f2p comes online.

    GL
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • Yeah. I honestly don’t understand the 2fg of stealthers who will also run with Druid bots. It literally kills solo and small man action.
  • edited August 2018 PM
    You both bring up a good point about the stealther zergs. I personally have no issue with them wanting to run fg's + of stealthers. What I hate is when those same fg's farm solo's and smallman instead of trying to engage in competitive fights with other stealther groups or even visi groups. The same could be said of fg's and more of visi's, but the stealther zergs tend to do it more often.
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • You make a good point about people pve keeps. Another possible soluton would be to significantly lower solo and 8man group rps and increase rps for battle groups. Make it a multiplier based on how many bg members on each side and if at a keep take/defence..
  • This is baffeling to think that running with more numbers is what will keep the game alive, wether that is visible or stealth. Fight your numbers. I know I'm on the 8v8 bandwagon, but that is a fair fight. Just like a 1v1 is a fair fight. With the pop so low, so very low, Zerging is not the answer. To fight against nothing but 2x your numbers (on a good day) for 8 hours is frustrating beyond description. And to counter the argument that I have herd Oh so many times that I just need to suck it up and adapt, If I get a second group to run with me, then Mids/Albs will just get another 2 groups to run with them. Its a losing battle to fight against 2x your numbers. I'll get a second group when someone shows me the can kick water up hill.
  • Well if they took the lower population bonus into effect that was posted in another discussion below maybe that would solve the issue.

    As it stands having the mentality of running static groups not allowing returning players to group only further kills the game. The solution is not to just look out for you.

    I understand your mind set of a fair fight... This is an rvrvr game its not dota. It shouldnt be based on a fair 1v1 fight. This is a game that is designed around realm v realm v realm. If i am incorrect please someone from broadsword step in and correct us on the intended design.
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    It’s hard to justify paying 15-30$ and only seeing 33% of what’s left.

    If you think this way you`re a part of the problem.
    It isn`t good in any way if ppl can switch realms within 1-2 mins.

    @returningplayer
    The design of the game is not from Broadsword, something that ppl often forget.
    BS vision of daoc is zerg vs zerg, just take a look at the last event. Not a bad event, but it works only with ppl fighting at the dragon keep/zone.
  • yah it seems to be a big contridiction with the dailies even having a solo kill daily. it should be removed if zerg vs zerg is what the game is going for.

    If the game targets 8v8 then the maps need to be redone as well. they should just abandon the nf and force everyone to pvp in ev. My gut feel is the few are ruining the game for the many.

    The realm swap thing being only 33% of the game seems a little off as well. Playing any one realm gives you the opportunity to play the game fully. I could understand the point if the direction of the game was pve but lets be realistic daoc pve is horrible and should never be a focus in this game... hehe if your playing daoc for pve then your doing yourself a great disservice by not playing many other games.
  • edited August 2018 PM
    The game was designed to be Realm v Realm, that has <perhaps irrevocably> been destroyed and now the game seems to have zero focus; the quests favor larger groups taking down smaller groups in search of the mighty RP .... the 'event', well --- yeesh....it's funny how a low pop game a few years ago still catered to al play styles, but now -- well -- it's a mess; makes ya wonder why the hole that has been dug keeps getting deeper.
    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • edited August 2018 PM
    So you solution to bring more players in is to consistaly get beaten by 2x the numbers? I'm not saying we should be running static set groups, that is how I have recruited, and is the idea behind every guild that has ever existed in any MMO. You join the guild of the people to run with and do X with in game and become friends, thats the idea behind making guilds, from that guild you mostly group with people from within that group. It literally just takes a "clique" and gives them an extra name tag and some sort of visual identification, on every game. And I do agree that the game was originally designed for RvR, Realm vs. Realm, Zerg vs. Zerg. Large scale epic battles. However, when there is only 200 people logged in at a time across all 3 realms, and 1 RvR BG has 80 people in it, and provided another 16-32 are doing some sort of PvE, Cursed 9/10, small OW raid, PL'ing alts, crafting, that means its 80 vs. 51 vs. 51 at best case scenario. In the above, it is usually 80 mids v 51 Hibs v 51 Albs. So ya, Hibs and albs pick fights with eachother because thats and even fight. Except more Hibs are interested in 8v8, so their 51 is more like 28-36. Its just an uphill battle. And the longer those fights go on, the more people unsub. And heaven forbid a Cursed 1-8 is going on, 70 people are missing from RvR all together.

    The focus of this game should be shifting to single group based objectives - This is on Broadsword to do.
    People need to be more inviting to people they don't normally group with - This is on our community to group up returning players. I personally have found several people that were diamonds in the rough because I invite almost anyone until I have 8. There are very few people that are on my no fly list. I have grouped kings gear, R1's, classes that are not my preference, and completly redone the group comp. My requirements are being able to hear and speak in discord, and have a level 50 that can synergize well with some type of group setup. Templates are prefered, For new/returning players I understand the daunting task, I do stop grouping with people that have returned, 4 weeks ago and still flat out refuse to get any gear other than kings gear. Because of this, I truly feel that me and my cru have met some wonderful people and had a great time playing, joking, and fighting, and many of those players are more than happy to run with me again. But you have to start throwing out invites. Hell the other day on Alb, I literally ran around the relic town with an invite macro and invited every single char I saw trying to fill last spot. And I have done the same on Hib.

    But, if these Zergs don't start breaking up, there will, and I know I keep threatining this, but there will be a snaping point for me and my cru, and there will be 1 less group to fight against. Or not fight against, because even the zergs don't want to fight eachother. Hell I don't think much of the leaders right now on a skill level, but at least last night Solic showed some balls and attacked stuff and didn't dodge and run from fights. Yesterday on Alb, my group was defending Bold against Hero zerg, single FGA. We killed 3 heros and a vamp on the ramparts and Hero tucked tail and move the entire BG to Eras. I lost the little respect I had for him at that moment.
    Post edited by Staticc on
  • I too returned to this game after being for 10 years not long ago. (5 months ago maybe 4?)
    I didn´t know a single player so I had to get to know new people and while I will agree that it felt harder than it should have to be it was far from impossible.

    I main as pac healer though and have over 100 days played time of mostly 8vs8 as that character so it was relatively easy for me to carry /region and /lfg groups vs other random groups which made my comeback quite easy. When I noticed that playing in these random groups during prime time was impossible because of set groups, I decided to contact every group leader in the 8vs8 community via PM to introduce myself. Shortly thereafter I was given chances to play with the top groups and after that I was back into the 8 man community.

    I never once felt like I had to zerg or stick to a bg. There were however a few occassions where I would get invited to a random group which happend to stick some kind of zerg or use something that people call "side cars". I tried to lead groups myself as often as I could because I hated this 2018 behaviour where you add on everything and use various dirty tricks to avoid 8vs8.

    TLDR: You are NOT forced to zerg as a returning player although I understand that there are difficulties doing something else, I´m trying to some things for the community to make it easier for new players to join the group vs group action.
  • The dominance of one zerg in numbers when there is actually more than one BG on is overblown and simply not accurate; at given times people flock to realms and do overpopulate -- the question is why --- if there were no reason to it wouldn't be done. Do zergs at different times avoid each other -- certainly seems so; but it's usually has less to do with avoiding and more to do with getting an open field fight .... zergs tend to do what the people in the zerg want to do
    go figure ---- you are not forced to do anything in this game, but unless a direction is picked people will do what is easy and/or 'fun' --- would be great if it was both.

    Why did the game get this way is the actual question. If you drive it to small objectives for value people will just 'zerg' to dominate -- again, nature. It would seem wiser to drive it back to a place where all playstyles are valuable --- not an easy task, granted, but there have been plenty of solutions presented and ignored --- and here we sit with virtually no one happy.
  • I am not even reading Xyorman's opinion as he is a major problem with the US Primetime population dwindling. You run 8 FG's on the island and just kill any action. The people in your zerg would find more fights and earn 2x the RP's if they broke away from your leadship. Odd Balls has already given up. 2 weeks they barley broke 1 mil RPS as a guild and 700k was from 1 late night Vamp, and last week 12th on the server. I can only assume they are sick of fighting against 80 Mids every night. TWF has half the RPS from dodging you, Cosmonaunts rerolled over to Free shard, My group spent most of the week in PvE on Alb just to fight against these hib groups and so did Release Inc. RI has numbers and runs side cars and still very Hib focused which is why their numbers are up. But even the individual numbers are down, only 5 people broke 1 mill last week (Yes ONLY, that still feels weird) but for the last 4 months it was regularly 10-15 people breaking 1 mil every week. And this is with the wonderful bonus and event going on. Not even the mid zergers are making a ton of RP's. 30% of the top 10 earners are stealthers or the late night vamp (Shoutout to Serium good vamp) that is going for LE. Where is all this action that you zerg leaders are promoting? 2 Mids in the top 10 RP earners. Where? If Zerging is the answer the question has to be "How do we kill this game in the next year?".

    Group based objects, both PvE and PvP. PvE raids should not require half of the RvR pop to complete, this make it hard to form groups. I just named almost every consistant US Prime Hib guild that runs and why you are not seeing action from them. But, If Pillager/Cdump/Clumsy/Lavas/Paindancer/Xyroman etc. would break into smaller groups and fight, you would see a lot less 180 on inc and would fight more than chase across 2 zones.

    But Hey I could be wrong here, This week Hibs have hovered at 50% bonus all week right where the albs have been for the past several months. But you keep on doing you. Just don't be mad when all you have to fight is keep guards....
  • edited August 2018 PM
    @Stoertebecker yup I like getting my $ worth so I’m gonna play what I wanna because I pay the 30$ USD a month...

    Proud to be part of the problem in your words, in mine I’m always positive and will be apart of the solution as long as I’m playing (not as much anymore tbh)
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • edited August 2018 PM
    Staticc wrote: »
    I am not even reading Xyorman's opinion as he is a major problem with the US Primetime population dwindling. You run 8 FG's on the island and just kill any action. The people in your zerg would find more fights and earn 2x the RP's if they broke away from your leadship. Odd Balls has already given up. 2 weeks they barley broke 1 mil RPS as a guild and 700k was from 1 late night Vamp, and last week 12th on the server. I can only assume they are sick of fighting against 80 Mids every night. TWF has half the RPS from dodging you, Cosmonaunts rerolled over to Free shard, My group spent most of the week in PvE on Alb just to fight against these hib groups and so did Release Inc. RI has numbers and runs side cars and still very Hib focused which is why their numbers are up. But even the individual numbers are down, only 5 people broke 1 mill last week (Yes ONLY, that still feels weird) but for the last 4 months it was regularly 10-15 people breaking 1 mil every week. And this is with the wonderful bonus and event going on. Not even the mid zergers are making a ton of RP's. 30% of the top 10 earners are stealthers or the late night vamp (Shoutout to Serium good vamp) that is going for LE. Where is all this action that you zerg leaders are promoting? 2 Mids in the top 10 RP earners. Where? If Zerging is the answer the question has to be "How do we kill this game in the next year?".

    Group based objects, both PvE and PvP. PvE raids should not require half of the RvR pop to complete, this make it hard to form groups. I just named almost every consistant US Prime Hib guild that runs and why you are not seeing action from them. But, If Pillager/Cdump/Clumsy/Lavas/Paindancer/Xyroman etc. would break into smaller groups and fight, you would see a lot less 180 on inc and would fight more than chase across 2 zones.

    But Hey I could be wrong here, This week Hibs have hovered at 50% bonus all week right where the albs have been for the past several months. But you keep on doing you. Just don't be mad when all you have to fight is keep guards....

    So you actually play this game AND pay attention -- I run 8fg on island only????? Wow, the problem is your perceptions....myopic at best.

    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • Xyorman goes where the action is, if it’s in alb he runs around in alb, if it’s on ev then he runs around on ev, I personally don’t like island fighting cause I lag there so badly.
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    @Stoertebecker yup I like getting my $ worth so I’m gonna play what I wanna because I pay the 30$ USD a month...

    Proud to be part of the problem in your words, in mine I’m always positive and will be apart of the solution as long as I’m playing (not as much anymore tbh)

    So you are not going to play CU where we`re going to have the same mechanics that we had in daoc for many years. Where choice matters, where realmpride matters?
    Thats ok for me. :)
  • @Xyorman your 100% predictable, which is why we very, very rarely fight. Your not as random as you think. I know You don't run zerg tonight, tomorrow you start BG, you take all island tower, then KM, then open port in hib, then back to EV for the next 3 hours. once a week you will go to Alb and open a port there. Since the event, its a bit more random, but still predicable. Take all towers on EV, take KM, take dragon, and stay in the keep or that zone for the next 2-3 hours. I hate to give this info away as it may mean you change your tactics, but I don't even care anymore. Your zerg has beaten 3 groups into quiting in the last 2 weeks to find something else to do. You slay more action than you think. All you guys that follow this leadship keep saying this is my own self serving reasons to make any of these changes, yet, can't look past your own self serving reasons to not make these changes, you also say I'm not seeing 8fg's yet, spam counts don't lie, If Albs are sitting in Beno or bolg (Which is what they mostly do, just like Ana does on mid) and there are only mids on Bolg, and spam says 80, its 80. Same thing with Hero zerg.

    The only thing you actually fight is lower numbers. No sportsmanship, no contest. Laugh while your doing it as the numbers your chasing get smaller and smaller. Still never answered my question of where is all this promised action that you tell your followers your bringing them. I have consistently out RP'ed the mids and all BG leaders running for the last month while I just ran 8v8 . As well as many other 8v8 people. And no its not because I simply logged on more, Hell I've missed the 4 days last week because of work and still pulled +25% over Xyorman and had 3 more in similar earnings. Me and my cru are getting our action, and we want more of that action, maybe some of the followers would fair similarly if they broke apart and tried to stand on their own. Or continue hiding behind numbers.

    The zerging playstyle is fine, and is your choice, but if you choose to engage in more fights, I'm telling you, there are other options, and benifits than splitting RP's with 80 other people, and thats splitting after you chase them down across 2 zones and still half the group gets away.
  • edited August 2018 PM
    I like how the returning player who is playing a healer says groups are ez to find and all it takes is to find out who the leader of the 8 mans are and send tells to each of them to make friends and get invites..

    so basically what i read here is all returning players play healers and stroke egos of the 8 mans in hopes you can get table scraps. They should add that info to the returning player campaign emails and see how many people decide to come back and try it out..

    look i get it you enjoy playing a pac healer. thats great but i do however feel that most returning players probably dont want to come back to heal so the 8 mans can continue playing..

    i do agree that you cant destroy all other play styles in the game however people come back to daoc for the epic large scale fights. if they wanted long drawn out small man team based pvp there is much better options including arena pvp in wow... /sad.

    id understand the frustration of being out numbered thats why i think there should be some sort of hp/dmg bolster to underpopulated realms instead of rp boost. that way it can level the playing field a bit. pursuing this 8man nirvana has left this game in a pretty sad state of affairs and something should be done to save it.

    I have ran in mid and hib zergs. i can say that no realm is above the other. infact they all do try to hit areas where the action is..

    As for the comment by static about less rps in zerg i couldnt agree more. If they want to push zerg vs zerg combat rps should be best in zergs and 8man, small man and lol duelers (wtf haha how is this even a thing in a rvrvr game hahhaa) should be significantly reduced... this would encourage more realm bgs.

    Id also like to say all you guys that do lead bgs my hat goes off to you. your probably the only real hope this game has to retain some of the returning players.
    Post edited by returningplayer on
  • edited August 2018 PM
    rofl, I never said you have to play healer to get groups. I said that it is easier to CARRY random groups the more important your role is however and the pac is probably the most important role in a mid group.

    The last thing this game needs is to make people zerg more I mean how deluded are you? People are doing nothing other than zerging on live these days. Have you ever watched the official DAoC stream?
    Post edited by Chamie on
  • edited August 2018 PM
    Again, I can't restate everything I stated above, as well as restate Chamie, Your suggestion is that largest pop wins, even with the boostings your are proposing, they will have to be HUGE to counter what 12 Zerks can push out on 1 target when assisting. And you think the the fights are drawn out in 8v8/small man then put your bonus in, in order to counter using your bonus theory, those fights could literally take hours then.

    To go along with Chamie's point, You are obviously welcome to try any class, but since this game has come out, support char's have ALWAYS had an easier time finding groups. Not one person can deny this. I also returned about 4-5 months ago after 4 year break, and that was less than a 6 month stay from the 10 years before that. My most recent come back tour, I geared my highest RR and fav toon, a Mentalist, a Druid, and Warden. This way I could swap and be conducive to getting groups. I didn't care what I played, just wanted to run and kill. There is a lack of Bards on hib so I resurrected my bard from the depths of where I deleted him from in OF and started forming groups. You can't reasonably expect to come back to the game as a DPS and never expect to be lfg. Hell even me offering Ment/Eld/Druid/Warden/BM/Hero I still spent hours lfg and that was after I made a few contacts. Those contacts are now gone because they either quit, got to big of an ego, or run side cars that I don't agree with. Those are what I have to deal with.

    But you are the first person (other than the BG leaders themselves patting their own backs) that say they hit targets and engage in fights. Do you not read the forums? Scroll down, there about 5-10 posts in the last 2 weeks about the zerg leaders to scared to fight each other.

    Honestly, I can't even with you.
    Post edited by Staticc on
  • ok fine lets say ur right im completely lost daoc is not a game about rvrvr its 8v8v8. Those side car players disgust me too how dare they have more then 8 people those scoundrels!!

    what is ur solution to getting players to come back and stay? from what im reading in what your wrote we should play support characters when returning and spend months building relationships to form 8 mans?

    I dont even know what planet that sounds like a reasonible expectation to have for returning/new players. besides that sounds like what we are currently trying and failing horribly.

    You have to realize if the player base doesnt grow or maintain that daoc will follow suit of warhammer online. You do agree with that atleast right?

    Lets get one thing straight here though. 8mans exist and have always existed because you get more rps. so lets say tomorrow we lower all rps for small/8man groups. Would you still proactively push 8v8v8 and spit at those side carring scoundrels?
  • Id also like to say all you guys that do lead bgs my hat goes off to you. your probably the only real hope this game has to retain some of the returning players.

    Sorry, but you`re wrong there. All hope is lost If zerging 2-3h/day at Us/eu primetime is the only action in this timeframe. There would be more returning players if each playstyle has a niche, and not only at primetime.
    Chamie wrote: »
    The last thing this game needs is to make people zerg more I mean how deluded are you? People are doing nothing other than zerging on live these days. Have you ever watched the official DAoC stream?

    Maybe she should play the game during streaming like we all do, that would lead to a more realistic picture of DAoC as flying from action to action. Not very impressive, amazing action during this streams. :)
  • so what ur saying is to limit players to only play during the stream time?

    it seems people are very opinionated against zergs but no one really has any insight on resolving the issue at hand...
  • So what your saying is that you haven't read any other posts here at all?

    Chamie is trying to start a drafting 8v8 setup where you can only have a max of 5-6 and HAVE to draft off the board and kind of ladder standings to pick order, still working the kinks out but solid COMMUNITY LEAD EVENT, NOT a BS sponsered event. 8v8 was a CUMMUNITY developed style that both Mythic and BS have refused to embrace.

    I have mentioned several different ideas, my Personal favorite is a very, very slight spin off JTT's idea of a Mordred ruleset level 50 BG. I even offered to give up all RP's for any kills inside the BG, but add a single daily quest same as the other daily quests, for 20k RPs for 24 kills, only kills inside the BG count.

    There, bam, 2 ideas to bring 8v8 action on board, and ZERO mention of interacting with the zerg. The zerg can still have its place for the people that need to rely on that play style and PvE doors down.

    Now, Can you accept those 2 ideas as a shake up to bring players back? I think either one has a better chance that the current event, which only caters to the realm with highest population logged in, and guess what, if your not in that realm, just don't go to the zone the keep is in, then no one gets RP's. And then when the zerg does leave no one gets the 75% bonus of 0, which makes the event pointless if people wise up and use their brain, but some people still feed the zerg with their duo/trio that runs in kills 3-4 and dies, all that does is feed this notion that the zerg leaders are making you massive RP's. When if you actually look at the herald, it not true at all.

    I have addressed your reasons for zerging, you have yet to address my reasons against. Tell me why you thin 8v8 hurts the population of this game.
  • 8v8 would only hurt the server if it would be the prefered style to play. Have seen that....somewhere. Don`t think that would happen here. I have no probs with an 8v8 arena/area where no zerg can add, but i`d like to see it open field. Sometimes i like to watch 8v8 fights...stealthed (for security reasons :D ).

    I was running last evening with a guild group as part of Hero`s BG. 17k rp`s (3k from healing), no quest finished, in 2hours. Sorry, that isn`t very entertaining for me, not even if i could get rp`s for running miles and miles in circles.
    1 Keep fight was ok, but meh, dem hibbies messed it up. :D

    Interesting that Alb has up to 85% bonus each evening between 7:45 and 10 pm (eu times), seems there is a high need for easy going rp`s and switching realms is their fav hobby. Could be more if they grow some balls and build up a own counterzerg.
    On the other hand...it`s Albion, the land of men in tights. :D

  • Im sorry Staticc i think you are incapable of having this conversation. I will not be responding to any more of your posts. best of luck hope ur 8v8's bring you more rps then you can dream about.
  • edited August 2018 PM
    I like this returningplayer guy
    Post edited by BurkleyRIP on
  • Staticc wrote: »
    This is baffeling to think that running with more numbers is what will keep the game alive, wether that is visible or stealth. Fight your numbers. I know I'm on the 8v8 bandwagon, but that is a fair fight. Just like a 1v1 is a fair fight. With the pop so low, so very low, Zerging is not the answer. To fight against nothing but 2x your numbers (on a good day) for 8 hours is frustrating beyond description. And to counter the argument that I have herd Oh so many times that I just need to suck it up and adapt, If I get a second group to run with me, then Mids/Albs will just get another 2 groups to run with them. Its a losing battle to fight against 2x your numbers. I'll get a second group when someone shows me the can kick water up hill.

    I'm with you here. If zerging is seen as the only safe way to make it out in the frontiers there will never be fun 8v8 or even 1v1 for that matter. I got back into this game strictly for the 8v8, that's where the skill is at all. If all you can/want to do is zerg, then I'm having doubts about your ability to play. I understanding zerging can have its place in the game, keep taking or relic raiding.
  • @Stoertebecker In order to have Alb build a counter zerg with any kind of consistancy would mean an influx of new players. Half of one zerg is not going to simply elect a new leader and roll over there, and with +85% it will take more than a single group to make a difference. If a BG leader moves over, then he brings the entire BG and then it just shifts to +85% for the realm they just left, meaning no real progress.

    @returningplayer I'm sorry that you still can't answer why 8v8 hurts this game. If the pop was there I have no issues with the zergs, but they don't fight each other and kills the action. The game is about PvP, with the interesting turn of PvPvP, but its just not getting the fights for the majority of the players. For more than 75% of the time that people play, this server may as well be Gharis, its all PvE.
  • @Rulother So because I may run with the zerg a few times a week...I'm a bad player? That is like the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. This is why people don't want to 8 vs 8. Majority of the 8 vs 8 crew think they are too elite for the average player base from what I'm reading (not all of you, but some for sure).

    Not going to help if you are trying to get your 8 vs 8 set up fights going and you are turning down people right from the start because they like the zerging play style. According to Rulother if you zerg you are automatically a worse player than the 8 vs 8 crew people.

    I want to see a healthy population in game too and I think BS needs to have options for EVERYBODY in the player base. Bashing a whole play style because you think you are above it... is not the way to roll or get people on your side.
    Tral
  • @Calconious This is a 2 way street. Have to give respect to get respect, I tried starting off respecting the zerg, the zerg shows zero respect to 8v8, so F'it, I have no respect for zerg. Personally, I have grouped a lot of people that enjoy zerging, and play "red is dead" but they have the understanding that when in my group, its my call, and we will respect fights and not specifically troll solo's/duo's.

    Chamie and I have posted many times several ideas to help encourage the 8v8 scene only to get continually bashed on for even bringing it up. Chamie has been quite professional in their responses while I have served ban time for out right bashing, I acknowledge this, but not seeing any ban hammers getting thrown back at the zergers. The frustration is boiling over.
  • Calconious wrote: »
    @Rulother So because I may run with the zerg a few times a week...I'm a bad player? That is like the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. This is why people don't want to 8 vs 8. Majority of the 8 vs 8 crew think they are too elite for the average player base from what I'm reading (not all of you, but some for sure).

    Not going to help if you are trying to get your 8 vs 8 set up fights going and you are turning down people right from the start because they like the zerging play style. According to Rulother if you zerg you are automatically a worse player than the 8 vs 8 crew people.

    I want to see a healthy population in game too and I think BS needs to have options for EVERYBODY in the player base. Bashing a whole play style because you think you are above it... is not the way to roll or get people on your side.

    That's not what I'm saying, though I can see where you might infer that. I said if all you want to do is zerg, not if you join the zerg every now and then. If I can't find a dedicated 8man, I might join up with the bg, depending on who is running it. The problem is, zerging has been the only means for a lot lately. I can go out with my 8man, but will only run into a zerg and never a 8man, sometimes 2fgs. Lately it has been, run into a fg then 2fgs pop out and crush you.
  • Apparently it’s only a select few that want to 8 man then, hence no reason to waste resources to appease the few. I’m an average player and play to have fun, 8 man is too much stress from forming to performing. Maybe it’s easier for you pros who can play blindfolded, but I know that’s why I don’t bother trying to 8 man, and I’m sure it’s why a lot of others would rather run in a bg rvr environment.
  • @BurkleyRIP How long do you think the lower pop based BG (When/if they exist) will continue to get beat up by 2-3-4x the numbers with no chance to win before they cancel their subs until there is nothing left to fight?

    This is an end game thing, think furthur than the next 3-4 weeks. If pop could sustain and have active competitive BG's then I have no problem with them, I do think they have their place, what I'm not on board with is this mentality that the zergs have that they can consistantly roll over the decreasing lower population for ever. If you truley love this game, even as a casual, with limited play time, that does not discount your passion for this game, but if you do love it, as I do (this game has literally changed my life 15 years ago), then you need to look at the sustainability of the business model. As a business model catering to the zergs in short sighted. It is for the masses of 1 realm, the realm with the highest population.

    I keep hearing all this love for the game, and yet only the 8 mans and Natebruner are the ones that have the respect enough to a least say "good fight." And if you have read ANYTHING on these boards you should know how much I would hate to give Nate a compliment (yes I will catch hell for this from my guild later tonight), but regardless of what I think of him or his play style, he is the ONLY non 8v8 mindset player that gives out gf's.

    Where are the fights these zergs promise,
    Where is the sportmanship if double numbers,
    where is the respect for letting someone stand on their on, 1v1, 4v4, 8v8?

    Where, tell me where is all this love for the game that everyone speaks of, because the only ones I'm seeing, exist in the 8v8 community. And while the Zerg pays the bills this month, the 8v8 will stay subbed longer if treated fairly.
  • i dont know why im even bothering saying anything at this point clearly the 8mans ravage this boad with non sense.

    8man is bad because it dictates only specific classes to participate which leaves most returning players with lfg frustration and leave.. i dont understand how your incapable of understanding this...

    8mans require specific group make up to be competitive which do not apply to the masses hence why people leave.. why pay to play a game if u have to play something u dont want to... dont say that the groups take anyone... thats bs after all u march around here screaming fair equal honorable fights bla bla bla.

    zerg allows for diversity and allows for more players to participate. this game cant sustain itself strictly on the 8man model. lets assume what ur saying is correct that 8mans will stay and support the game longer.. how many players is that.. lets do some loose math...

    8players = 8x15 = 120 a month.

    so lets assume how many solid 8 mans.. lets be generous and say 50 8 man groups.

    50x120 = 6000

    you think that is enough to cover broadswords cost to operate a month...

    i get what ur saying. ur the pro arena guy... i honestly think u woild enjoy wow arena but thats besides the point.. your business model will not fly.

    just realize if u love this game soo much and it changed ur life 15 years ago.. (lol a video game changed ur life.. theres some issues i wont touch) broadsword will not continue to keep the game running out of the kindness in their hearts.. its a business not a charity.

    the perspective you take is the game is dieing so lets make arenas and fight while the servers are still up. the perspective i take is lets try and keep the game alive.. two totally different mindsets hence why i said i would stop replying to you earlier... yet here i am trying to continue talking to a wall... foolish on my own part..
  • edited August 2018 PM
    Staticc wrote: »
    @Xyorman your 100% predictable, which is why we very, very rarely fight. Your not as random as you think. I know You don't run zerg tonight, tomorrow you start BG, you take all island tower, then KM, then open port in hib, then back to EV for the next 3 hours. once a week you will go to Alb and open a port there. Since the event, its a bit more random, but still predicable. Take all towers on EV, take KM, take dragon, and stay in the keep or that zone for the next 2-3 hours. I hate to give this info away as it may mean you change your tactics, but I don't even care anymore. Your zerg has beaten 3 groups into quiting in the last 2 weeks to find something else to do. You slay more action than you think. All you guys that follow this leadship keep saying this is my own self serving reasons to make any of these changes, yet, can't look past your own self serving reasons to not make these changes, you also say I'm not seeing 8fg's yet, spam counts don't lie, If Albs are sitting in Beno or bolg (Which is what they mostly do, just like Ana does on mid) and there are only mids on Bolg, and spam says 80, its 80. Same thing with Hero zerg.

    The only thing you actually fight is lower numbers. No sportsmanship, no contest. Laugh while your doing it as the numbers your chasing get smaller and smaller. Still never answered my question of where is all this promised action that you tell your followers your bringing them. I have consistently out RP'ed the mids and all BG leaders running for the last month while I just ran 8v8 . As well as many other 8v8 people. And no its not because I simply logged on more, Hell I've missed the 4 days last week because of work and still pulled +25% over Xyorman and had 3 more in similar earnings. Me and my cru are getting our action, and we want more of that action, maybe some of the followers would fair similarly if they broke apart and tried to stand on their own. Or continue hiding behind numbers.

    The zerging playstyle is fine, and is your choice, but if you choose to engage in more fights, I'm telling you, there are other options, and benifits than splitting RP's with 80 other people, and thats splitting after you chase them down across 2 zones and still half the group gets away.

    It's impossible to have a conversation with a zealot, facts mean nothing. You seem to get your info from postcount; worse yet others who think they KNOW things. Missing 4 days you still run more than I do and longer --- you wanna know why there are BG's -- people want to run in them. I have more time 8v8 in this game than you have played, but you wouldn't know that because you KNOW what's going on; ---- sorry there, but you really know nothing at all.
    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • As far as i remember, Staticc did not say *only 8v8 arena, skip the rest. If they play 8v8 in a arena/area or if they quit playing at all cause the fav playstyle is zerg vs zerg, it`s the same result at the end.
    They`re not available, not as rp fodder for the zerg and not as paying customers. Each player that quits at the current state is a loss.
    There are enough empty Battlegrounds, make one of them lvl 50 with ffa ruleset and see what will happen.
  • As far as i remember, Staticc did not say *only 8v8 arena, skip the rest. If they play 8v8 in a arena/area or if they quit playing at all cause the fav playstyle is zerg vs zerg, it`s the same result at the end.
    They`re not available, not as rp fodder for the zerg and not as paying customers. Each player that quits at the current state is a loss.
    There are enough empty Battlegrounds, make one of them lvl 50 with ffa ruleset and see what will happen.

    I don't mean be rude but this mindset is LOL. Ok sooo lets break it down why it is..

    there isn't enough players in zergs on some sides which is why zergs are unfair / unskilled (staticc mindset).
    this then causes 8v8 because numbers imbalance.

    solution:
    if we make a battle ground so people can 8v8 in them this will resolve issue....

    WRONG this is why:

    well the zerg's will go ok. well no one to kill out here lets all join the battleground and kill the 8mans its better then no rps.

    if you think you can solve this issue by instituting restrictions to the battleground ie number of players. That will not happen as its an mmo and its not good business sense to alienate customers. if you think they will dump more resources into the game to open multiple battleground instances so you can 8v8 your kidding yourself as im sure the revenue generated doesn't warrant the cost.

    Now im not saying this wouldnt be something that could be done later down the road but in my eyes there has to be a larger game population before it would even be entertained. which brings all this nonsense back to the big question that no one can answer apparently and that is "HOW DO WE RETAIN RETURNING PLAYERS??"....

    let me try simple math equation hopefully you can follow...

    population + returning/new players = population growth

    population growth = more revenue

    more revenue = longer life of game + new features/added investment into the game.

    On a different note. I do want to point out last night was amazing turn out on bgs from all sides hib alb and mid. There was some fun epic fights and it was the first time i saw such good turn out from all realms since i returned 2 months ago.

    Hib could of used a bit more but unfortunately they had 8 mans that didnt join their zerg and kept trying to feed rps off the sides of the battling zergs by killing over extending players.

    I know this incredible battle didnt have anything to do with this post but i like to pretend it had a little to do with the sense of realm pride post earlier.
  • @Stoertebecker This is my point. I have acknowledged the zerg and given them a place, and continue the rewards they reap.

    @returningplayer Please re-read my first statement as a starter. For you next point, double the 8 man count, because most of us have at min 1 buff bot account, and many that have 2 bot accounts or more which would cover the few that don't run a bot account, I'll take the generous side and and call it an even 2 accounts per 8 man'er. That does start to offset the cost and pure business model.

    Next point. I have/do/and continue to group random people with random group makeup based on availability almost daily. I do have a set group of 7 friends with specific classes in which I feel make an optimal group setup on tues/thurs so that we can get what we want out of this game. Thats how we want to play.

    I'll address the "we're to good to group up and do anything for the rest of the realm" implication. I am not selfish, I can get 15 witness to back me up that I have had a list of 7 people waiting to run in my group with each class that I want, I then messaged them each and got them to make a new second group, to roam on their own. I was not self and they were all solo'ing while waiting for 1 to log from my group and join individualy, I got them in touch with each other and got them running out in the frontier, I even had then in a secondary RvR chan on my discord server because they all already had the access. Have you ever done anything that unselfish in this game? I have given away items to people, help recommend high demand classes, and current specs for those classes to returning players, Recommended guilds for returning player to match their personalities, given other common group leaders recommendations on players, everything I can do to get people into RvR. And yes that includes getting them in BG based RvR. So I will not accept any criticism of not doing my part to help my fellow gamer here. That is flat out incorrect.

    As for your personal attack at me that you "not even going to touch." I'll restrain myself from dropping a couple F bombs and elaborate for you.

    Before a friend showed me this game I was a drug addict living on my own at age 17 stealing a phone line from a car shop across town as a phone line. I was a high school drop out and working as a janitor. I met my co-gm of my guild in murie tomb. And we built a solid respected guild back on Hib Tristan (Unbroken Unity for any that remember). Not hard core 8man but a group of friends that enjoyed gaming. Eventually after being unemployed for 8 months my co-gm helped move me 500 miles to a complete new town with no promise of a job, car, or even a place to live. Technically I went 3 months homeless. An officer from guild moved to the same town from across country because she was looking to get out on her own from her dad, and another officer from guild did the same coming from Alaska to meet us in Kentucky. Sadly, they both moved back within 6 months. I stayed, clean up my life (15 years sober of drugs 2 months ago) Went back and got my GED, went to college, even worked with the local police department. As a matter of fact, I was the primary IT support for the city for the point of greatest eclipse as designated by NASA last year, and still have my picture of me on location when I hooked up their internet. Also because this game peaked my interest in technology and computers. I think this game has a big impact on my life.

    So before you go randomly judging people on the internet, maybe ask what you have done in your life recently.
  • Oh, and I never read post count. Xyroman, and never known you to 8v8.
  • Staticc wrote: »
    @Stoertebecker This is my point. I have acknowledged the zerg and given them a place, and continue the rewards they reap.

    @returningplayer Please re-read my first statement as a starter. For you next point, double the 8 man count, because most of us have at min 1 buff bot account, and many that have 2 bot accounts or more which would cover the few that don't run a bot account, I'll take the generous side and and call it an even 2 accounts per 8 man'er. That does start to offset the cost and pure business model.

    Next point. I have/do/and continue to group random people with random group makeup based on availability almost daily. I do have a set group of 7 friends with specific classes in which I feel make an optimal group setup on tues/thurs so that we can get what we want out of this game. Thats how we want to play.

    I'll address the "we're to good to group up and do anything for the rest of the realm" implication. I am not selfish, I can get 15 witness to back me up that I have had a list of 7 people waiting to run in my group with each class that I want, I then messaged them each and got them to make a new second group, to roam on their own. I was not self and they were all solo'ing while waiting for 1 to log from my group and join individualy, I got them in touch with each other and got them running out in the frontier, I even had then in a secondary RvR chan on my discord server because they all already had the access. Have you ever done anything that unselfish in this game? I have given away items to people, help recommend high demand classes, and current specs for those classes to returning players, Recommended guilds for returning player to match their personalities, given other common group leaders recommendations on players, everything I can do to get people into RvR. And yes that includes getting them in BG based RvR. So I will not accept any criticism of not doing my part to help my fellow gamer here. That is flat out incorrect.

    As for your personal attack at me that you "not even going to touch." I'll restrain myself from dropping a couple F bombs and elaborate for you.

    Before a friend showed me this game I was a drug addict living on my own at age 17 stealing a phone line from a car shop across town as a phone line. I was a high school drop out and working as a janitor. I met my co-gm of my guild in murie tomb. And we built a solid respected guild back on Hib Tristan (Unbroken Unity for any that remember). Not hard core 8man but a group of friends that enjoyed gaming. Eventually after being unemployed for 8 months my co-gm helped move me 500 miles to a complete new town with no promise of a job, car, or even a place to live. Technically I went 3 months homeless. An officer from guild moved to the same town from across country because she was looking to get out on her own from her dad, and another officer from guild did the same coming from Alaska to meet us in Kentucky. Sadly, they both moved back within 6 months. I stayed, clean up my life (15 years sober of drugs 2 months ago) Went back and got my GED, went to college, even worked with the local police department. As a matter of fact, I was the primary IT support for the city for the point of greatest eclipse as designated by NASA last year, and still have my picture of me on location when I hooked up their internet. Also because this game peaked my interest in technology and computers. I think this game has a big impact on my life.

    So before you go randomly judging people on the internet, maybe ask what you have done in your life recently.

    Cool story bro... No idea what it has to do with realm population.
  • I started on alb Tristan, glad you cleaned up your life and the game had a positive impact on you. However, I do not see that it has any bearing on what is wrong with the game. Unfortunately you can’t force people to 8 vs 8 to get more fights for your playstyle, much like we cannot force you to join the bg. Like I said in previous posts, a lot of players are casual nowadays because a majority of us are in mid to late 30’s and older and don’t have the time or patience to 8 man. It is much easier and convenient to log in at certain times and say lfg in guild or bg chat and get an invite and try and find some fun. I know a few people who have returned, gotten back into the swing of things and run in a lot of off peak hours 8 mans and kill it in rps, but unfortunately that is not the case for most. Either skill level is not up to par, time zone issues or just lack of wanting to just run with 8 prevent most from 8 manning.
  • edited August 2018 PM
    I'm a bit confused at the problem here @Staticc. I understand what you want but you started this whole conversation because according to you 8 man RvR was dying and zergs were killing it but you stated up above that you earn 25% more rps than one of the biggest zerg leaders while playing less. How are those two statements not conflicting? If zergs are where the easy rps are and 8 man is dying because of that then how are you earning so many more rps than @Xyorman?
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • edited August 2018 PM
    Aparantly you guys overlooked where returning took the slam at me about how the game changed my life, so I spelled it out, it has no bearing on the population at all, I just needed to correct w/e assumption he had about me.

    @BurkleyRIP I'm asking to force anyone to go to 8v8. I have clearly said, multiple times, that is your play style, but there is an alternative, and you will see more fights by breaking off from the BG because more 8v8 will happen and you will get more fights than chasing or just doing laps stuck 1 leader that has you conviced that this is the best way to make RPS.

    @RonELuvv The zergs are killing action. 3 fights clears quests and almost 100k RP's for the night. it takes 4-5 hours to get those 3 fights. So 1 fight per hour, the rest is searching for a group, dodging the zerg, roam emain, roam odins, roam Hadrians, dodge zerg, roam EV. There is every potential to get 3 fights an hour rather than 3-4 fight per night. I didn't say 8 man was dieing, I said it can help stimulate the population if some things can be moved to increase single group activities.

    3 FG's have moved over to Live from **** in the last month, now, regardless if they were zerg guild or 8man, 24 live players with I think we can all safely assume at least another 12 buff bots, these could be running in RvR, but the daunting task of gearing has to incorporate a BG, or begging to buy credits because they all started fresh accounts, then wait for a BG raid for PvE which leaders for those are dropping faster than BP's are earned. [edited] Thats players not in RvR. Thats a small mini zerg.

    If more single group obtainable tasks can be targets, the returning player base would not feel so overwhelmed and quit in the first month, if action is increased with smaller skirmish based goals then they have a reason to stay after that first month. But as several people have state 3-4 weeks is on average (but not mileage may vary depending on time zone, realm, existing friends/guild, etc), then get 1-2 weeks of trying to get consistent groups, then they have no reason to stay for boring action.
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • There is a number of points brought up in this thread.

    a) Some of us expect Broadsword to dictate how we play there game and give us direction.
    - The reality is that things evolve, even before Broadsword took over things had already evolved in how each and everyone of us played the game. It is an open sandbox style game in which NF is the battleground. Allowing for all styles of play. You as a player/leader get to choose what you want to do.

    b) Spamming /lfg all day wether it be in /region or /bg chat is an option - be it also lets others determine what you do OR don't do in your playtime
    - /bg groups or /bg groupclass and /msg the leader for a spot or what they need 90% are nice about it and accept any class
    - step up and lead a small man /group - expand your circle of friends, avoid areas where known competitive groups roam.

    competitive 8v8 can be class restrictive - noone is forcing you to do it, however casual roaming 8 man can be whatever - be the leader, lead your own playstyle and in game destiny - stop letting others dictate it for you.


  • ... k soooo returning fresh players need to group in 8mans and fight templated perfectly balanced groups with higher rr toons, that will save the game... yes how could we miss this obvious answer...

    i mean how does logging in hoping into a bg and getting into the action right away and participate in something during the limited play time most of adults have be the answer.

    clearly we should log in and shout for specific classes for an hour or so (if lucky) or alternatively play support roles that we dont want to necessarily play so we can roll with 8mans and fight "fair fights" against higher rr players.. thats what returning/new players want to do...
  • By all means keep hoping in that BG, that is your choice, just don't get mad when you make 0 RPs and fight nothing but a keep door, because the lesser numbers are dieing off, the population is going smaller, not bigger, so every day that you hop in that BG with bigger numbers rather than the smaller numbers, is another day that someone else unsubs.

    Again, I'll repeat it again. ZERGING is dieing and killing the game pop. 8v8 is a way to increase player pool. Get your head around that please. Your taking a small suggestion that a different play style could be of benifit and turning into a witch hunt of exagerations with nothing to back it up. I have given many different scenarios of potiential and some have agreed to the potential, and that potential would naturally spill over and create more fights with other players.

    Keep telling yourself that everytime you follow the bg leader with bigger numbers that you are increasing the population with swing on an empty keep door, and every lap on EV that you see nothing on. Chant that mantra and scream we won, we beat them into not even playing because we won the fight 80v16. Just keep saying it loud enough.
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