Archer RR5's
Purely a discussion.... but I am curious why there was such bias with the changes to the rank 5's for archers (really just hunter/ranger)
Hunter RR5 now complete negates two entire spec lines, in return for a 15% damage boost (the 40% haste and 15% disease chance are negated, since you pet diseases and you get a 39% haste from pb shot)...Not to mention losing your hunter pet not only loses a large dps boost, but also you ability to penetrate defenses on most targets.
This needs to be adjusted - pet either needs to not die, or you need to be able to use your bow... or both... quite frankly.. it should just be a 15% dps boost with no negative effects... its super niche and situational at best... in the 2m or so rps i've made in 3 weeks since ive been back, i've used it effectively like 5 times.
Ranger RR5 gives sever the teather... a direct counter to hunters and a 30% cast/speed decrease... an RR5 that has ZERO negative effect... why is there such bias? Rangers already have a 7 min rut 360 advanced evade, a frontal root, and superior melee with new weapons/procs/etc...
It seems like some loud players who were upset they got out played by hunters made these rr5 suggestions... the pet itself was already adjusted down 15 times... I am unsure why we decided to gut the rr5 of one class and bolster another...
Hunter RR5 now complete negates two entire spec lines, in return for a 15% damage boost (the 40% haste and 15% disease chance are negated, since you pet diseases and you get a 39% haste from pb shot)...Not to mention losing your hunter pet not only loses a large dps boost, but also you ability to penetrate defenses on most targets.
This needs to be adjusted - pet either needs to not die, or you need to be able to use your bow... or both... quite frankly.. it should just be a 15% dps boost with no negative effects... its super niche and situational at best... in the 2m or so rps i've made in 3 weeks since ive been back, i've used it effectively like 5 times.
Ranger RR5 gives sever the teather... a direct counter to hunters and a 30% cast/speed decrease... an RR5 that has ZERO negative effect... why is there such bias? Rangers already have a 7 min rut 360 advanced evade, a frontal root, and superior melee with new weapons/procs/etc...
It seems like some loud players who were upset they got out played by hunters made these rr5 suggestions... the pet itself was already adjusted down 15 times... I am unsure why we decided to gut the rr5 of one class and bolster another...
Comments
with that being said... how abilities were in the past is irrelevant to now... currently the hunter rr5 has 2 negative effects, is directly countered by another archers, and is generally speaking subpar.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I assume when y our 4-5 man hits even numbers and all your team vanishes your upset you cant rr5 to Wilson off aymore lol ;\
Scouts - Range only effective rr5 with NS cure + NS on damaging the enemy; does it do anything else? (highly situational).
Ranger - Sever the tether + 30% attack speed debuff +30% casting speed debuff (quite usable in most situations, more so against pet users and melee dps. How long does the debuff last outside of the storms radius?).
Hunter - Melee oriented rr5 (Less situational than scout rr5 but large negative in the sacrifice of the pet. 30s duration as well?).
Not sure if there will be any alterations in the future, archers had a plethora of escape tools and losing one in the rr5 was a step in the right direction; however, what they were replaced with is interesting as both the Scout and Hunter's are effective through only a single spec line.
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and you need a boost cuz your run 4-5+ stealthers to rr11 and now trying to solo and flop terribly and qq on forum how your ezmode class cant win ezmode fights, rofl what a joke
also @Amp_Phetamine it also puts bow on cool down fro 30 seconds... so if you zephyer at say 15 seconds... you basically need to disengage and run, since you cant use bow till it drops.
Ahh okay that definitely makes it even more situational. I've also heard if you want to drop the rr5 form to use bow you have to manually disable 5(?) active buffs. Not very useful, especially if zephyered and at distance.
Pretty unique why they'd make two of the three rr5's so extremely situational and give rangers (probably the most solid archer over the history of DAoC) such an effective rr5 in comparison (i.e., no negative features as you stated).
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or go the pet spec and kite and never ever be shot or touched lols
you cant just be bad and qq your class sucks when it has a clear advantage over almost anything it fights, SPECIALY its stealther counterparts
you mean for a short amount of time you have to fight like rangers and scouts do every fight always ? and you qqing that scouts and rangers got it to easy and you need a boost ?
LOL
god forbid for 30-60 sec(vs 1 class in the game) you have to try to figure out how to fight without your pet slowing peoples run speed so they cant melee you and totatly locking down their shots
and sry im not trying to be rude im just trying to open your eyes to how ignorant and unexperienced you are, go play a ranger or a scout for a week with no pet at all and try to fight a few classes your hunter kills easy and see how it goes
Kinda of why posted the thread... its highly situational, tbh I haven't even tried to cancel the 5 different buffs, because its just too cumbersome. The ranger rr5 shouldnt have a pet scare and the hunter rr5 shouldnt drop bow or shouldnt kill pet... one or the other... The scout rr5/scouts in general need some form of love but yea.
1# hunter, roots them lets u run off on speed
2# scout same as hunter except scouts disarms u longer then the cc lasts so they can run away or restealth (lol)
#3 ranger, silences you but disarms him so he cant attack and just sits and looks at u for a few seconds and then start fighting again
all while you have god mode pets that interrupt and cc to hell, all while dmging as u run untouchable/unshootable
now they change them and allow a hunter to go full bow now, 1 point in pet for graycon pet, then pop their rr5 to use that pet they have 0 spec spec points into to be godmode in melee, after u get to them after they just pumped u full of full maxed out bow shots aka bolts from stealth
you literaly have and have had it the easiest and you keep making posts bout how you still cant pull wins off if your not in your 4-5+ man
just stop
Hunters have become much more manageable since they shortened the wolf procs to max 10 seconds. Regardless of the Hunters who cried nerf they are adjusted and using it effectively.
Ranger sever the tether is op’d negates entire pets and the AOE is massive. Also the aoe reduces the melee and casting speed while inside of it. Doesn’t really make any sense Lore wise if you think rationally about it.
https://divoxutils.com/users/user_2ZTPHy8tjVF9LWMgujSZfCY9Mos/characters
[edited] you spew the same nonsense on every post. No one cares about how it was in the past, we are talking about balance today... I am sorry you are too young to remember melee scouts being the meta.. but they were at one point.
I literally have had 270 solo kills in the last two weeks... you need to stop talking. You have no idea what you are talking about and alls you is try to tell people how good you are at a class where you made a video killing rank 2s... Just stop and let the adults talk.
Keep talking about this imaginary 4-5 man, that you think i play with... [edited] and the reason the internet is a **** place/this community sucks... [edited]
even kefka agrees...
I proposed that the Hunter rr5 morph be adjusted from the scalars version to a Werewolf version similar to some of the mobs in Mid. That way you could better see the flow of combat.
I wouldn't be against the hunters keeping their rr5 ability as is while also giving them the ability to utilize bow as long as the 15% dps boost and disease proc are melee dps specific. Keep the speed boost and possibly alter the shape-change if it is something that is desired.
The scouts rr5 could also incorporated possibly a melee combat snare/root proc with reduced melee dps output associated with their rr5 use.
Just spit balling ways that the hunter and scout rr5's can be tweaked to be more useful with alternative spec lines.
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what a joke
i dunno why it bothers me to read , ima leave it alone sorry carry on
you also misinterpret what a discussion is, with someone complaining... ranger rr5 has never lost me a fight... doesnt mean it should exist..
I think these are fair suggestions... to me the simple solution is ranger rr5 looses pet scare aspect - all else stays the same... hunter rr5 is a straight 15% dps (percentage open for reasonableness of course) increase for lets say 15-20 seconds, instead of 30.... no negative effects, no haste/disease proc though...
honestly i havent given much consideration to the scout rr5.. but i like where your headed.
The change to rr5 bascially killes the pet and the bow...for an ARCHER with an pet. And made the archer spec a supbar spec on an ARCHER archtype.
Not really sure why BS decided that archer spec should be supbar over hybrid/melee on the hunter. I have submitted this question for grab bag, but haven't seen a response.
and I didn't say you cant solo, you did, im just explaining to you that its not your class, your class has a huge advantage over the other 2 if you've any clue how to play so that maybe you listen and think about what your doing and what your char has and go try to make your self win, instead of qq [edited] to win 1v2 when the 2 is always on your side
Ive never claimed to be a solo player. My first hunter was on mordred and has 900 ish solo kills at rr9.... This hunter was 10L1 and only ever played in a duo in labby (with a rl friend) when ywain first came out, before i strated duoing with him again last summer with leot...
When im at the solo towns im solo, if im on EV im in a duo at most, or solo.... again who do i zerg with? How did i zerg my way to rank 11? oh and btw.. i was 50 sword till 10l1. jokes on you.
and I was like lou why do u keep say duo and everytime I die its like 4-5 with you ?
and your like, we went to a spot and it was alrdy camped what are we supposed to do leave?
-_- lol
but it don't matter if you solo I just see the game differently then you and we'll disagree im sorry I always get on your ass bout this type of post ill just let you do your thang and mind my self for now on, cheers !
I agree 100%... I basically think they tried to over compensate with the rr5's and created an unnecessary mess.I can see it going to a straight 15% dps (again % open for reasonableness) increase for 15-20 seconds with nothing else... with that being said I think the ranger rr5 should remove the pet scare function, but if a hunter doesn't need its pet to use its rr5, its slightly less of an issue.
it has the part about being true...If i go to EV the same thing will happen now... 15 archers looking to mooch.
Also in theory i think the scout rr5 seems pretty cool. Anyone know how long it lasts?
Now...I will probably be flamed for this,....but it is wrong to create a rr5 specifically to use another's class spec points against them.
example if same rr5 was on another class: eldie spec is changed to rip hammers out of skald's hands...then hammer beats up skald, while eldie keeps nuking. Using the hammer spec against the skald. Then poof...hammer is gone. While in the meantime, skald rr5 disables hammers and speed.
(not great example, but hopefully meaning is clear)
Someone playing a ranger must have srsly been bent out of shape dying to hunters to come up with this
i didn't get a defensive response... so therefore I am affirmed you some what agree. I suspect the scout rr5 is really good against casters... v. useless vs. most other classes.
Hunter RR5 kills your pet and is a HUGE pain in the ass to drop to use bow, but it is a huge damage increase plus disease on every swimg AND you forgot the 115% speed bonus.
Ranger RR5 is really good against pet classes. Against non pet classes it is useless against most people because they will just back out of the circle and break los to either force you to go after them or they will heal up, in which case it does NOTHING.
Scout RR5 is very useful against other ranged casters/archers but not very effective against mele.
They all have their positives and negatives. Quit trying to make it seem that one is wayore powerful than the others. You also brought up a good point @lou. You get a 39% haste for your pb shot buff. Which is HUGE!! What do rangers get again? Oh right... 10% more effective blades/pierce which pretty much does nothing in RvR. We all have pluses and minuses to our toons.
We don't get a 115% combat speed boost... its a 40% haste which doesnt stack with PB... you also lose your ability to penetrate defense, by losing the dog... this rr5 is good for dropping casters or the random nature druid in stun, due to the 15% melee dps only increase If im hitting for 300 a swing, which is about average.. 15% bumps that to 345... i'd hardly say thats a HUGE dps increase as you put it.
Additionally YOU NEED TO HAVE A PET UP for rr5 to even trigger... if its out of range, cant use it. if its dead, cant use it. Ranger should NEVER have to deal with a hunter rr5 unless they pop it on inc.
The ranger rr5 does 2 things... it pet scares and causes the pet to attack the owner... additionally if people back out of the storm.. just sit there and plink... if they LOS, you can reset a fight, use a timer, etc...its applicable to all classes you fight.. and should be used on every fight... since well you have a ranged attack and if people want to run out of it... let them.
The ranger rr5 isn't necessarily "strong" but it simply shouldn't have a sever the tether function attached to it.
In regards to PB and its "bonus" hunters get 39% haste... rangers get 10% more effective weapon... you also miss signifcantly less, already swing at near cap speed with celerity charges up and get a 7 min rut 360 evade, have higher base evade, etc....
tl:dr the pet scare/sever needs to go away, hunter rr5 shouldn't have a bow restriction or needs to not kill pet... im all for it just being a straight dps increase for both bow/melee with no restrictions... i dont like abiltiies in the game that restrict your own spec points... ie, make you not able to do something your class does when you pop an ability... it would be like if a ment popped its rr5, but couldnt nuke for its duration.
It is +15% weaponskill, and i don`t think its absolutly useless.
Scout rr5 works against every ranged attk, incl. Blur. Havn`t seen many scouts using it, but i have seen some decent hunters/casters that were able to counter the ranger rr5. Some....not many.
I will say the ranger rr5 is tough but can be countered quite easily.
the ranger rr5 has never directly lost me a fight, but with all the tools rangers have for defensive I just don't think they need another. They are arguably the best stealther with everything up and decent RR. A 30% ASR stacked with melee ASR's is huge...
The hunter rr5 just has to many restrictions... it literally makes two entire spec lines useless when you use it, and you need to have a pet up to use it... for 15% dps buff basically.
I don't disagree, I just think they went overly complicated and someone had a chub for hunters when they designed the rr5's... a 30% cast/melee speed decrease thats an AOE storm is huge... if they run out of it.. you plink.
https://divoxutils.com/users/user_2ZTPHy8tjVF9LWMgujSZfCY9Mos/characters
And now the scout is an archer with a archer rr5, It´s their own fault if they don`t use it. It´s 30s, like the other archer rr5`s..and you can take out each ranged attack against you.
They`re all situational, but some ppl just don`t get it.
@lou
What are we comparing, ranger with all ra`s and tools up against hunters/scouts with nothing up+ ready or what?
I think Hue should reactivate his scout or play a ranger
We're not comparing anything. Were discussing the usefulnes of an RR5's and if they need to be changed to ensure balance across the 3 archers. My personal thought is that some rr5's were made better/worse based on individuals who complain/post the most, who have limited play time and experience on the classes as a whole.
The reality is the hunter rr5 has 2 negative effects on it, which is basically unheard of on an rr5.... which was to compensate because at one time people thought the dog was "too much"... the dog has been GREATLY toned down.. and now the rr5 cant even be used if your dog isn't summoned... so not only does it apply 2 negative effects, it cant be used unless you have a pet summoned. It's situational at best and two of its biggest "features" (haste and disease) are nullified based on them being already applied by dog/pb shot. A 15% damage boost doesnt outweight the defensive penetration and damage add the dog gives... which you have to spec to 40 to get a decent pet.
The ranger rr5 has no restrictions and is a direct counter to hunters (for no reason), and can be used against every single class. Add on a 7 min 360 evade buff that is unique to them, a frontal root style that negates your pet within 2 seconds and generally the best overall archer, it seems a bit much to also have an rr5 that makes your pet attack you.
The scout rr5 is good for taking out other archers/casters at range, but is situational at best as well... could likely use a buff as scouts as a whole are generally sub par in comparison to its counterparts.
No ones saying anyone is underpowered/overpowered (except i think most agree scouts need some help, not drastically, but some help)... but doesn't mean things should stay the status quo. It seems the ranger ra specifically as designed to spite hunters because for a while everyone was playing a kite/dog hunter...
As kefka said, sure LOS could be an issue... but that same issue faces hunter pets (due to pathing) and all archers with bow spec... it shouldnt be the factor that determines how/if something is balanced.
All in all, I can see a hunter rr5 that simply increase damage for bow/melee so all specs/playstyles benefit with no other functionality, a ranger rr5 that is simply a 30% asr/cast speed aoe cone (i can see it going from a storm to a aoe ability like menty rr5, to address some fair concerns about functionality).... and the scout rr5 getting a bow damage increase if it stays in its current iteration.
They shouldn't be ultra situational effecting 5% of fights... but they also shouldnt be over the top.
don't disagree, but we also dont want the era of melee scout from 2007ish to come back where they rofl stomped everyone.
I've suggested adding a scout specific style at 44 wep that would make speciing decent in melee a reasonable option... they would either need to give up bow or shield to a degree.. but would make them more viable overall.
You`re comparing ra`s the whole time. I´ve played my Ranger on Gareth at a time as melee rangers were smoking each other stealth class (playing such a op class wasn`t the intention on creation, but ok), made it to lone enforcer and got it ripped during char transfer. ( thx BS)
I really don`t care if i have this rr5 or not, i fatfinger it to 70%, like remedy or the evade buff.
Archers today are a joke compared to archers 10y ago.
If i go 50 bow as an archer (incl all toa bonis etcetc) and hit a caster for 480 dam with critshot i think *ok, that may be a reason why we see stealth zergs 24/7*.
It`s a counter to pet classes, not hunters only. Sill wondering why some hunters performing very, very well against rangers and other stealth classes, and other Hunters are complaining. Maybe because they know how to handle their pet, or they don`t need it anyway ?
The evade buff is nice, if you don`t fatfinger it.
Frozen comet would mean you have at least 35 celtic dual, mostly 39 for atks debuff. Nice for kiting, if you know how to kite and if you don`t have the response capacity of a stone brick....like me.
How about if we skip the current rr5`s on all archers and give them a 25-50% dam boost for bows instead?
I mean...480 dam from a critshot? On a caster?
If i see that Westie hits me for 1k-1,4k...on 40% resis....cool thing.
You asked if we were comparing all ra's up to no ra's up... i said we wern't comparing... Your fat fingers arent relevant in the dicussion... the evade buff is extremely strong and what separates rangers from the rest vs melee toons... I never once said i had a problem dealing with the rr5... it just shouldn't exist in the function it is. It already is a debuff, but the petscare/attack isnt warranted and they dont need it, thus it should be removed.
all rangers should be 35 cd...Not really sure why you wouldnt... you give up nothing for it.
I dont think archers (stealthers in general) need a dps boost - they're just fine as a whole.. some slight tweaks are warranted but beyond that.. not so much.
For example evade buff should go on rangers
Scouts should get a 39 or 44 wep unqiue style that gives them decentish melee dps
Hunters should get evade 4/5 like rangers/scouts
sin's should get mezz poison on a timer
etc.
These arent game breaking changes and will likely only affect a handful of fights for top end players, but thats what balance is...