Classic Server and Ywain's Future

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  • edited January 28 PM
    [edited]
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • Keltorius wrote: »
    I’d like a Classic/SI server again but with better leveling than the old days. No one wants to take months to hit 50 again. Make some changes to crafting so items would have different types of bonuses to them and make it worthwhile again.

    No ToA!! It led to the first exodus and would likely do the same again with it’s “haves” versus “not have” dilemma.

    But, to each their own I suppose.

    Toa didn't lead to a exodus when they brought toa out there subscription base went up. Watch a death of a game daoc great video.

  • I personally don't have any interest in restarting my hard work (and I'm not talking about RPs or solo kills - I'm talking about PVE, the new PVE (farming BPs), templating, leveling, etc.) at this stage in the game.

    One thing I can say about EC: it is rough. Not being able to use a supremacy is a huge disadvantage (imagine dying and getting rezzed and only being able to throw up a heroism buff). Not being able to use champ abilities for pet buffs is a huge disadvantage to pet classes. I have a few EC accounts and a few live accounts and am absolutely miserable everytime I play my EC toon :> This isn't to mention how bad the RPs are for EC accounts - thank god mine already have some rank.
  • I think the proof of concept has already been done by other games as to whether or not there's not only a demand, but whether people are willing to pay for it. EQ and WoW being two of the largest examples IMO for being a very similar player base. Nostalgia is a huge deal, and a huge market.

    I've played almost every incarnation of EQ's TLP servers, and still to this day play on one, but I don't play current expansion EQ. I also play wow classic atm as well, but don't play current expansion WoW. Multiple paid accounts on both of them. I currently don't play DAOC at all, but will play an official classic + SI + Housing server in a heartbeat (beginning to see a theme here?) ;)

    I feel that the "seasonal" aspect is by far the best way to keep things fresh for players and is honestly the strategy that they should use based on my experience with EQ's TLPs and following shards and other game servers. I'm glad to see based on what's been stated so far that they're considering more along the lines of "seasonal". Now that being said, 3-6 months is most likely going to be too frequent from what I saw suggested earlier. But once a year, maybe two would most likely be the right balance to be struck. You want people to get established and have the feeling of having "veterans" to a server, while still being new enough that there's a solid trickle of new players coming to the server.

    A good example can be whenever a new TLP is made on EQ. Even those that played on a TLP in the past sometimes takes a month or two to hear about a new TLP if they stopped playing EQ from a previous TLP. So you want to give at least a few months for people to hear about the server and begin playing. Another few months to give moderate play-time players to level and maybe get out to some BG action or maybe even get to 50 and hit frontiers, and then another few months after that to have people feel a sense of maturity to the server and a chance for relics to change hands a few times.

    All I know is that I've been chomping at the bit in anticipation for more information about the classic + SI + housing server, along with at least 10 other buddies of mine lol.. :D

    @Broadsword I CAN'T FREAKING WAIT. AHHHH!! :D :D :D
  • Well Badgor, more than half my guild on Alb/Bors quit shortly after ToA because they didn’t have the time to devote to doing MLs and Scroll farming for the artifacts back then.
  • edited January 28 PM
    @Insedeel [edited], server population stabiizes roughly after 6 months.
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • Insedeel wrote: »
    I think the proof of concept has already been done by other games as to whether or not there's not only a demand, but whether people are willing to pay for it. EQ and WoW being two of the largest examples IMO for being a very similar player base. Nostalgia is a huge deal, and a huge market.

    I've played almost every incarnation of EQ's TLP servers, and still to this day play on one, but I don't play current expansion EQ. I also play wow classic atm as well, but don't play current expansion WoW. Multiple paid accounts on both of them. I currently don't play DAOC at all, but will play an official classic + SI + Housing server in a heartbeat (beginning to see a theme here?) ;)

    I feel that the "seasonal" aspect is by far the best way to keep things fresh for players and is honestly the strategy that they should use based on my experience with EQ's TLPs and following shards and other game servers. I'm glad to see based on what's been stated so far that they're considering more along the lines of "seasonal". Now that being said, 3-6 months is most likely going to be too frequent from what I saw suggested earlier. But once a year, maybe two would most likely be the right balance to be struck. You want people to get established and have the feeling of having "veterans" to a server, while still being new enough that there's a solid trickle of new players coming to the server.

    A good example can be whenever a new TLP is made on EQ. Even those that played on a TLP in the past sometimes takes a month or two to hear about a new TLP if they stopped playing EQ from a previous TLP. So you want to give at least a few months for people to hear about the server and begin playing. Another few months to give moderate play-time players to level and maybe get out to some BG action or maybe even get to 50 and hit frontiers, and then another few months after that to have people feel a sense of maturity to the server and a chance for relics to change hands a few times.

    All I know is that I've been chomping at the bit in anticipation for more information about the classic + SI + housing server, along with at least 10 other buddies of mine lol.. :D

    @Broadsword I CAN'T FREAKING WAIT. AHHHH!! :D :D :D

    I agree, I'm pretty pumped, too!

    Like you, I play on a TLP server in EQ as well. It works very well and the population is outstanding.

    With that said, I feel that with the proper advertisement, proper care in launching said server, and the ability to listen to their PLAYERS; the Classic server will be a hit. Hell, I sometimes find myself going all over SI, ToA, and older zones just to try to spark some nostalgia... It works, sure - but it can only go so far without others to help.
    Listen to the people - they will guide you..
  • edited January 27 PM
    Shoke wrote: »
    @Insedeel The idea of the 6 months duration is based on shard history, server population stabiizes roughly after 6 months.

    Right, but once you start looking at retail and official, things do tend to change often times significantly. This comes from the experience of the witnessing several EQ emulated servers, to several EQ TLP launches, wow classic, etc. You can't really go into the timeline of an "official" retail release of a classic server entirely basing it off of a shard, or unofficial like environment. You have many from the shards coming over yes, but you do in fact have many others that are returning just because it's now official.

    Several reasons the timeline could easily be better longer would range from what's been seen in other official releases of other games' classic servers compared to their unofficial emulated counterparts, to handling servers, actual populations, "official" marketing strategy from the official company, emulation not being as accurate as people think which can dramatically affect pacing either negatively, or positively. etc, etc.

    Honestly I think that @Broadsword would be best benefited in this situation not giving a finite sounding "end date" and leave it open ended. Start off with stating something like that the server would be open a "minimum" of 6 months before considering another server, or merger, etc.
    Post edited by Insedeel on
  • Insedeel wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    @Insedeel The idea of the 6 months duration is based on shard history, server population stabiizes roughly after 6 months.

    Right, but once you start looking at retail and official, things do tend to change often times significantly. This comes from the experience of the witnessing several EQ emulated servers, to several EQ TLP launches, wow classic, etc. You can't really go into the timeline of an "official" retail release of a classic server entirely basing it off of a shard, or unofficial like environment. You have many from the shards coming over yes, but you do in fact have many others that are returning just because it's now official.

    Several reasons the timeline could easily be better longer would range from what's been seen in other official releases of other games' classic servers compared to their unofficial emulated counterparts, to handling servers, actual populations, "official" marketing strategy from the official company, emulation not being as accurate as people think which can dramatically affect pacing either negatively, or positively. etc, etc.

    Honestly I think that @Broadsword would be best benefited in this situation not giving a finite sounding "end date" and leave it open ended. Start off with stating something like that the server would be open a "minimum" of 6 months before considering another server, or merger, etc.

    /agree +1
    Listen to the people - they will guide you..
  • Enkertons wrote: »
    I personally don't have any interest in restarting my hard work (and I'm not talking about RPs or solo kills - I'm talking about PVE, the new PVE (farming BPs), templating, leveling, etc.) at this stage in the game.

    Me neither. But without population you cant play.
  • Insedeel wrote: »
    I'm glad to see based on what's been stated so far that they're considering more along the lines of "seasonal".

    They didnt say anything about that yet.
  • edited January 27 PM
    Kroko wrote: »
    Insedeel wrote: »
    I'm glad to see based on what's been stated so far that they're considering more along the lines of "seasonal".

    They didnt say anything about that yet.

    They did sort of. I guess maybe seasonal was the wrong term. I apologize. But to quote the 12/13/19 grabbag verbatim they stated:

    https://darkageofcamelot.com/article/friday-grab-bag-12132019
    Afterward, our alternate server proposal will then be our major developmental focus. Our original proposal of a subscription-only ‘Classic + Shrouded Isles + Housing’ server that advances (vote-based) through DAoC’s subsequent content is still the plan. We’ll be sharing the details of that server’s ruleset, like which Frontier it will use and what other changes will be involved with it, as we get through 1.127! Depending on how this alternate server goes, we will be launching subsequent versions (perhaps with some fun variations) with a more forced progression.

    In other words, I interpreted this as they're already open to and/or planning subsequent servers based on the success of this one. That could mean yes, different rulesets with different goals, but it could also mean just a continued "reset", or adopting of a "seasonal" launching more Classic + SI + Housing servers with the previous being merged into YWAIN, etc. That was all I meant by the considering seasonal already, because I'm sure that's on the plate with nothing set in stone yet for future servers outside the initial Classic + SI + Housing.

    Post edited by Insedeel on
  • edited January 27 PM
    No seasonal for me , i cancel all my sub if the game become seasonal . Remove somes of the EC restriction is the way to go . And revert back the pboe change .
    Post edited by Hellblast on
  • @Insedeel
    Ok, we dont know exactly what they meant.
  • Hellblast wrote: »
    No seasonal for me , i cancel all my sub if the game become seasonal . Remove somes of the EC restriction is the way to go . And revert back the pboe change .

    Great care needs to be taken in keeping not only the servers fresh, but not have too many servers going at one time that spreads players out too much to end up with dead servers. There's also the aspect of top heavy servers that are also highly detrimental. Why do you think EQ keeps releasing TLPs every year or two? To keep everything fresh.

    The big difference between EQ and DAOC is you have PvP player power in high RA affecting the player interactions in DAOC of course. So it's harder to just keep opening servers and leaving the others to their stagnating doom because of PvP and high RA top heavy servers. People joining a DAOC server when it's filled to the brim with high RA top heavy and in-game economic riches is a recipe for disaster for new and returning players. When you have a "reset" every so often, it gets even the more casual players willing to play again because of everyone starting on a truly level playing field. That's why unfortunately so many hand-outs had to be given to new players on current retail DAOC to try to mitigate the extreme difference between the veteran and any potential new player.

    These kinds of arguments though were made till everyone was blue in the face, and the only thing that proves what is going to work and what isn't in any of the other games was to just release them, and go through a bit of growing pains with trial and error to find the right formula for that specific game. There are ALWAYS players who will quit no matter what choice you make as a company. All I know is I'll at the very minimum get to ride on the blissful wave of nostalgic excitement of the very first Classic + SI + Housing server and hope that they have the right formula. :D :D
  • @Gildar Once a new server happens, you don't need to touch crafting really. It'll already become super important because it's a lot easier to craft than it is to farm items. Reason it lacks utility now is because of curse/OW/whatever else has been farmed to heck and back already. If it's an SI server, that was basically the height of crafting.

    @Enkertons and @Hellblast
    Don't really know why all the hostility for the new server. Hipefully you realize that once a new server happens for subs only, BS is now free to DRASTICALLY open up EC restrictions on ywain. Which would benefit you both immensely.

    BS makes some interesting decisions sometimes, but they're not stupid. There's no way they make a new server without basically making ywain 98% free to play. That will boost ywain population enough to compensate for the people moving to the new server. Again, keeping you both happy on multiple levels.

    If you don't want to play the new server, don't. Ywain will still be there exactly for your play style. Good luck out there!
  • edited January 28 PM
    Side note to BS: please don't change classes too much if at all. Unless you hire more people specifically enact and update those changes. Ywain can't afford to be ignored.

    That's why I propose just making a simple test server. Copy-paste ywain for the first "season". This will be very easy to implement (can be done faster which will make us happy) and you'll immediately see how big of a boost this new seasonal approach to daoc till be to your bottom line. Then you can make hiring and future business decisions knowing that it'll only get better. A lot less people are going to sub specifically for a ywain clone than classic or mordred for example. Perfect worst case test.

    Also limit it to end around the holidays this year, let everyone know exactly when and exactly what's coming next (classic for example). Should be long enough to have meaningful progression, and again extremely easy to implement. Additionally it'll let people jump into it with easy leveling and gear acquisition (specially kings gear) and no changes from live let's them jump back to ywain with no learning curve at the end with their new rr5+ toons.

    Watch how the leveling progresses, rr distribution, raids, ect. Find out what pain points there can be for the next server and try and figure out solutions ahead of time.

    TLDR: New server beta test. This is a huge milestone or make/break event for daoc. It realllllllly needs to be tested. Keep expectations very low for the first round, and accordingly devote little resources to it. Then once it shows how big a success it can be, go big!
    Post edited by AlaskaMike on
  • edited January 30 PM
    I would come back for a Classic + SI + Housing server with several accounts and I know of 12 more persons that would as well.

    Some balancing between classes and some RA balancing would be good but not necessary (reactions from balancing done over the years could be used for the balancing decisions this time around).

    I would not object a seasonal approach to this server, like resetting Realm Points (and with that Realm Ranks) to 0 at some point in the future. Seasonal duration needs to be investigated.

    Forcing people to start PvE leveling from lvl 1 again and getting templates together again I would object to.

    I would even accept the Trials of Atlantis expansion being implemented at some point but if it can be avoided I would prefer that. Any of the expansions after Trials of Atlantis I object to being implemented on this server.

    I personally would prefer Old Frontiers but I can understand the people that feel hatred for the mile gates, maybe a redesign of those choke points might be an option. Maybe alternate between OF and NF during different seasons.

    A possibility would be to start with one server (unless the expectation is that to many players will return for this, in that case open 2 or even 3 servers) where one account can only play on one realm. If the server is successful after 2, 3 or even 4 seasons open a 2nd server with the same rule set and let people play another realm there.

    I would not return if the characters I have created on this server is moved to Ywain cluster.
    Post edited by Jorma on
  • I am sure someone has mentioned before, but I don't see a new classic server do any good for daoc live currently.

    It's the same as EC, everyone imagined huge hype, thousands of players pouring into the game, and as it turns out nothing as simple. In fact a classic server have to race with illegal versions, which as a company that has to make money of it, highly doubtful they manage. In the meanwhile you split the current population, which can be fatal, and in a few months people realize that not their RR/current gameplay hold them back anyway, and keep having same issues as on live.

    All of classic rulesets on live already failed. Just because illegal versions base on before toa, there are technical reasons for it, not because it's the best.

    I agree with @Shoke that Dragon Campaign times (Before DF revamp) was the most healthy state of the game, but even that won't guarantee that live will manage to keep up multiple servers.

    There are some fine ideas here which MIGHT work, system with transfering back to ywain, seasons, events, etc might be appealing. However to do it properly, is not the scale of DAoC, many much bigger games fail sometimes with these, and takes them horrible amount of work to do so with many more employees.

    If BS want to go down that road, no one can (and based on feedback none will) try to stop them. However to do it properly is not a small task, and the risk of dividing population, another flop is huge. I see some fixes on live, appealing sub/EC system, game getting on steam is much easier task, and way less risk.

    To summarize, I am not thrilled. Community is let down due the expectations of EC, and now looking for another grandiose idea that will magically bring in huge amount of players to DAoC. I see a road to another letdown ahead.
  • Gildar wrote: »
    Now with bots / potions / items / etc a class can do practically everything (regen, heals, speed etc), with the Classic rules a healer could not do anything if he had no group, a tank would take a lifetime to do exp without healing , a caster died against a mob blue without tank that kept aggro ....

    Remove all these self buffs / pots / self regens etc and the players will have to team up to do something and we will get back the old daoc that we all loved.
    iMHO

    Or nobody will play healers or other classes that are extraordinarily hard to level up on.

  • Gildar wrote: »
    Hello everyone,

    4) you must restore utility to crafting.

    But keep the new faster leveling craft system. It still takes a bit of time/coin. Having to level an armorcrafter/sc'er for a server lasting 6months using the old method would make me cry.
  • edited February 1 PM
    @John_Broadsword @Carol_Broadsword

    I am a returning player checking out EC for the first time. I have played DAoC extensively from EU launch in 2002 up until the release of ToA [edited].

    While of course a classic server is appealing to some people because of Nostalgia, it also genuinely is a better experience than what DAoC is right now on Ywain, for a lot of people.

    If you do a true classic DAoC Server with SI+Housing+OF ruleset, no "fancy" stuff but stick to the original game and add QoL features that do not alter the original, authentic DAoC experience plus add some kind of "seasonal" feature with a reset every 6 or 12 month, I guarantee that you will have a server with 3000+ active players during primetime.

    [edited]
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • @Xalara
    Just transfer em few millions of $ as a guarantee which you get back if so. Seems like a no risk deal. Oh wait, all those classic servers for free, how many died so far?
  • edited February 1 PM
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    Just transfer em few millions of $ as a guarantee which you get back if so. Seems like a no risk deal. Oh wait, all those classic servers for free, how many died so far?

    Hence the "seasonal" feature. Which keeps things fresh and has been described by multiple people in this thread already. [edited]
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • Xalara wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    Just transfer em few millions of $ as a guarantee which you get back if so. Seems like a no risk deal. Oh wait, all those classic servers for free, how many died so far?

    Hence the "seasonal" feature. Which keeps things fresh and has been described by multiple people in this thread already. None of the private servers had that.

    I love that everyone thinks their own preference will solve everything. Sorry for the wording, but I found guaranteeing step to the next level. You can't guarantee it. You would like to play like that, you assume everyone would, and while seasoning is fun, nothing lives forever without change. While I won't go as far to guarantee, but I bet here if that would happen you would be gone pretty fast and not pay sub for years either. Feel free to quote me years later.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Xalara wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    Just transfer em few millions of $ as a guarantee which you get back if so. Seems like a no risk deal. Oh wait, all those classic servers for free, how many died so far?

    Hence the "seasonal" feature. Which keeps things fresh and has been described by multiple people in this thread already. None of the private servers had that.

    I love that everyone thinks their own preference will solve everything. Sorry for the wording, but I found guaranteeing step to the next level. You can't guarantee it. You would like to play like that, you assume everyone would, and while seasoning is fun, nothing lives forever without change. While I won't go as far to guarantee, but I bet here if that would happen you would be gone pretty fast and not pay sub for years either. Feel free to quote me years later.

    What you have said stands with a lot of truth. But, just like everything else in life - there is no reward without risk; just like that there are no guarantees in life other than death and taxes.

    With all of that said, this game does need some sort of... 'refresher', so to speak. Speaking for myself, I miss the days of Dragon Raids, Fomor Raids, etc. Hell, I've been here since 2003 and I have yet to even do a Legion Raid (always wanted to, just never had time). Anyway, I think if they just made that stuff viable again, got rid of the awful restrictions on EC accounts, and simply just did some decent advertising; I feel that the population would increase significantly.
    Listen to the people - they will guide you..
  • Thing is, nostalgia wears off, private servers would have technical difficulties running current live as it's not even an option. Live will always struggle to race with free options of the same, and less legal restrictions on stuff. If you could make a complicated new server with bunch of new ideas, might aswell fix whats broken instead. Risk is everywhere, but thats where risk-management comes in.
  • edited February 1 PM
    [edited]

    If BS would do the same a server like that could even be more successful, because it would be still an "official" product.
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • @Xalara
    DAoC already had Classic. Sure seasons will let people forget all the issues. Times have changed.

    Classic had many issues people ignoring/forgot. If it happens, I be there having so much fun at the sight of failure that noone could see beforehand. I wish you the best, and have 0 issues with your or anyone feedback, but I can't continue with that blind optimism believing the success is a fact. It happened over and over during DAoCs lifetime, and then pokeface that nothings that simple.
  • I think a consideration that we haven't really talked about here yet is that there's a time length for the temporary server long enough that players will fully invest themselves in the server. Without that you have a lot less willingness to form guilds/alliances, get your crafting up, do and then run PVE raids, etc.

    Certainly if it was a 3 month server I'd spend most of my time simply trying to kill peeps. Obviously on the flip side if it's an 18 month server or two years, does Ywain survive?

    So, ballparking 6-9 months seems good, maybe up to a year if everything's peachy.
  • edited January 31 PM
    No one's ignoring or forgetting the flaws of classic, which is why pretty much everyone is suggesting common sense QoL changes. And bringing up the official "classic" server, which was classic in name only, is incredibly disingenuous. They were "no ToA" servers, not classic. Limiting buffbots then turning around and allowing Catacombs classes like Vampiirs, Heretics, and Warlocks, at a time where they were still infamously imbalanced, was a shortsighted half-measure.

    But more to the point, this talk about classic servers eventually dying is 100% a red herring. The 6+ month long revenue boost that would accompany the (possibly) temporarily doubled, tripled, or more, player numbers that a classic server would bring is absolutely worth the amount of work it would take BS to get the server running. It is almost guaranteed to bring in more revenue, even temporarily, than any other change BS can realistically make to Ywain at this point, baring them somehow tripping into some perfect combination of EC changes that magically brings in 1000+ players.

    Compare the amount of work it would take to get a SI server running to, say, revamping all of Catacombs into group content (which is something else that we know BS is either working on or plans to work on in the future), and tell me which one is more likely to bring in more players/money and see a return on investment.

    After the server launches and some times goes by, BS can then decide if it's worth putting in the effort of "seasons" or events or any other means of trying to keep the classic/SI players around. And if BS can execute on their intention for their SI server to act as a means of drawing those players into Ywain, then that effort may not even be needed in the first place.
    Post edited by Drane on
  • Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    DAoC already had Classic. Sure seasons will let people forget all the issues. Times have changed.

    Classic had many issues people ignoring/forgot. If it happens, I be there having so much fun at the sight of failure that noone could see beforehand. I wish you the best, and have 0 issues with your or anyone feedback, but I can't continue with that blind optimism believing the success is a fact. It happened over and over during DAoCs lifetime, and then pokeface that nothings that simple.

    The reality is DAoC doesn't attract the kinds of players that are suited for Ywain. BS DAoC is absurdly complicated in comparison to classic DAoC on a class basis alone. Unless BS can figure out a way to bring in competitive players, you're stuck with a largely casual crowd. Managing less skills and /uses is way more casual friendly than what is currently on Ywain. Classic is simple. Add QoL and it's extremely fun. It's DAoC without the fluff. That's the crowd this game still attracts. No Facebook ad is going to bring in the crowd Ywain needs. This is why BS needs a vision of what they want the game to be and who their target audience is. Right now, no one knows and it looks like they're desperately shooting in the dark to stay afloat.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
  • edited January 31 PM
    Tyrantanic wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    DAoC already had Classic. Sure seasons will let people forget all the issues. Times have changed.

    Classic had many issues people ignoring/forgot. If it happens, I be there having so much fun at the sight of failure that noone could see beforehand. I wish you the best, and have 0 issues with your or anyone feedback, but I can't continue with that blind optimism believing the success is a fact. It happened over and over during DAoCs lifetime, and then pokeface that nothings that simple.

    The reality is DAoC doesn't attract the kinds of players that are suited for Ywain. BS DAoC is absurdly complicated in comparison to classic DAoC on a class basis alone. Unless BS can figure out a way to bring in competitive players, you're stuck with a largely casual crowd. Managing less skills and /uses is way more casual friendly than what is currently on Ywain. Classic is simple. Add QoL and it's extremely fun. It's DAoC without the fluff. That's the crowd this game still attracts. No Facebook ad is going to bring in the crowd Ywain needs. This is why BS needs a vision of what they want the game to be and who their target audience is. Right now, no one knows and it looks like they're desperately shooting in the dark to stay afloat.

    To quote myself, classic "might" be a way forward, but might be not. As said I have no issues with feedback, but arguing about guarantees, and being dead sure on things I am bored of.

    Let's see the past that led here.

    DAoC reached 250.000 subscribers when SI came out, then started declining to 200.000. ToA came, that's where it peaked afaik about 260k. After that slowly declined.

    Catacombs didn't recover it, neither LOTM was that popular. However during Dragon Campaign era (before DF revamp) many did agree game was at a good place.

    What I am trying to point at, that nothings unsolveable. To a previous commenter, no I didn't mean Catacombs revamp. Fixing Ywain is an option, and regardless of a new server it needs maintenance anyway.

    We can throw BS under the bus, but behind all the trashy changes there is this lovely community on some. We want new items! We don't want new items! Broken keeps! No broken keeps! Broken keeps! Classes need new abilities! Classes need less abilities! We want classic! We don't want classic! Faster leveling! Slower leveling! Faster leveling!

    It gets exhausting. Just take in account, that while any here might be the genius idea that saves daoc, but based on past, it's rather unlikely its all of them. If we pull towards 1 way, and 1 way only, on a fail we can't point our fingers towards the dev team. Give them options, it's their job as a developer to be smarter then an average player who thinks they are a game developers.

    Obv thats not mainly towards you Tyrantanic.

    Edit: Also do not think that "QoL improvements" changes are as simple as writing it down on a forum post, just because it's easier then to list what to fix on ywain. We wan't transfers, seasons, huge changes on classic (yes many QoL thing is), thats alot of effort to do properly. Can try, but it aint easy.
    Post edited by Gavner on
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Tyrantanic wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    DAoC already had Classic. Sure seasons will let people forget all the issues. Times have changed.

    Classic had many issues people ignoring/forgot. If it happens, I be there having so much fun at the sight of failure that noone could see beforehand. I wish you the best, and have 0 issues with your or anyone feedback, but I can't continue with that blind optimism believing the success is a fact. It happened over and over during DAoCs lifetime, and then pokeface that nothings that simple.

    The reality is DAoC doesn't attract the kinds of players that are suited for Ywain. BS DAoC is absurdly complicated in comparison to classic DAoC on a class basis alone. Unless BS can figure out a way to bring in competitive players, you're stuck with a largely casual crowd. Managing less skills and /uses is way more casual friendly than what is currently on Ywain. Classic is simple. Add QoL and it's extremely fun. It's DAoC without the fluff. That's the crowd this game still attracts. No Facebook ad is going to bring in the crowd Ywain needs. This is why BS needs a vision of what they want the game to be and who their target audience is. Right now, no one knows and it looks like they're desperately shooting in the dark to stay afloat.

    To quote myself, classic "might" be a way forward, but might be not. As said I have no issues with feedback, but arguing about guarantees, and being dead sure on things I am bored of.

    Let's see the past that led here.

    DAoC reached 250.000 subscribers when SI came out, then started declining to 200.000. ToA came, that's where it peaked afaik about 260k. After that slowly declined.

    Catacombs didn't recover it, neither LOTM was that popular. However during Dragon Campaign era (before DF revamp) many did agree game was at a good place.

    What I am trying to point at, that nothings unsolveable. To a previous commenter, no I didn't mean Catacombs revamp. Fixing Ywain is an option, and regardless of a new server it needs maintenance anyway.

    We can throw BS under the bus, but behind all the trashy changes there is this lovely community on some. We want new items! We don't want new items! Broken keeps! No broken keeps! Broken keeps! Classes need new abilities! Classes need less abilities! We want classic! We don't want classic! Faster leveling! Slower leveling! Faster leveling!

    It gets exhausting. Just take in account, that while any here might be the genius idea that saves daoc, but based on past, it's rather unlikely its all of them. If we pull towards 1 way, and 1 way only, on a fail we can't point our fingers towards the dev team. Give them options, it's their job as a developer to be smarter then an average player who thinks they are a game developers.

    Obv thats not mainly towards you Tyrantanic.

    Edit: Also do not think that "QoL improvements" changes are as simple as writing it down on a forum post, just because it's easier then to list what to fix on ywain. We wan't transfers, seasons, huge changes on classic (yes many QoL thing is), thats alot of effort to do properly. Can try, but it aint easy.

    Agreed with all of this.

    So, I played another MMO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) for many years. It was originally ran by Turbine then later bought out by Stone State Games. With that said, most, if not all of the devs went against what the people wanted and drove the population down to absurdly low numbers - most of which is when the released a seasonal 'Hardcore' server. Add to that the nerfing of classes that didn't need it and the buffing of classes that were clearly overpowered (mind you, this is PvE ONLY, ZERO PvP). I quit the game because of that; it simply wasn't fun anymore. All they seemed to care about were the whales and gave two s*its less about the free folks, or even the folks that paid the sub just didn't buy into the points system.

    Honestly, BS has a few options that they can choose to do. But in reality, they should listen to their players more-so than anything else. As you stated, there is no 'perfect' option - but there surely are ways to make things better...
    Listen to the people - they will guide you..
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Tyrantanic wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    DAoC already had Classic. Sure seasons will let people forget all the issues. Times have changed.

    Classic had many issues people ignoring/forgot. If it happens, I be there having so much fun at the sight of failure that noone could see beforehand. I wish you the best, and have 0 issues with your or anyone feedback, but I can't continue with that blind optimism believing the success is a fact. It happened over and over during DAoCs lifetime, and then pokeface that nothings that simple.

    The reality is DAoC doesn't attract the kinds of players that are suited for Ywain. BS DAoC is absurdly complicated in comparison to classic DAoC on a class basis alone. Unless BS can figure out a way to bring in competitive players, you're stuck with a largely casual crowd. Managing less skills and /uses is way more casual friendly than what is currently on Ywain. Classic is simple. Add QoL and it's extremely fun. It's DAoC without the fluff. That's the crowd this game still attracts. No Facebook ad is going to bring in the crowd Ywain needs. This is why BS needs a vision of what they want the game to be and who their target audience is. Right now, no one knows and it looks like they're desperately shooting in the dark to stay afloat.

    To quote myself, classic "might" be a way forward, but might be not. As said I have no issues with feedback, but arguing about guarantees, and being dead sure on things I am bored of.

    Let's see the past that led here.

    DAoC reached 250.000 subscribers when SI came out, then started declining to 200.000. ToA came, that's where it peaked afaik about 260k. After that slowly declined.

    Catacombs didn't recover it, neither LOTM was that popular. However during Dragon Campaign era (before DF revamp) many did agree game was at a good place.

    What I am trying to point at, that nothings unsolveable. To a previous commenter, no I didn't mean Catacombs revamp. Fixing Ywain is an option, and regardless of a new server it needs maintenance anyway.

    We can throw BS under the bus, but behind all the trashy changes there is this lovely community on some. We want new items! We don't want new items! Broken keeps! No broken keeps! Broken keeps! Classes need new abilities! Classes need less abilities! We want classic! We don't want classic! Faster leveling! Slower leveling! Faster leveling!

    It gets exhausting. Just take in account, that while any here might be the genius idea that saves daoc, but based on past, it's rather unlikely its all of them. If we pull towards 1 way, and 1 way only, on a fail we can't point our fingers towards the dev team. Give them options, it's their job as a developer to be smarter then an average player who thinks they are a game developers.

    Obv thats not mainly towards you Tyrantanic.

    Edit: Also do not think that "QoL improvements" changes are as simple as writing it down on a forum post, just because it's easier then to list what to fix on ywain. We wan't transfers, seasons, huge changes on classic (yes many QoL thing is), thats alot of effort to do properly. Can try, but it aint easy.

    I think the most upsetting aspect about Broadswords approach is they gave an illusion that the community, as a whole, had input with their Knights Program and podcasts. Yet, each patch went against the community and favored a select few. Clearly, Broadsword has no vision of what they want DAoC to be. For any meaningful progress to be made, they need one. If DAoC is meant to be a highly competitive PvP game, then they better start promoting it as such. Bring back tournaments. Start leaderboards. Get sponsored events. Sell it for what it is. If DAoC is meant to be a PvE / RvR focused MMO then it's time to reel in the casuals and bring back the simplicity of classic DAoC. Right now, Ywain has an identity crisis that needs to be solved before moving forward. Otherwise, to your point, they'll be chasing mixed messages from the community which will inevitably lead to its collapse.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
  • Tyrantanic wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    Tyrantanic wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    @Xalara
    DAoC already had Classic. Sure seasons will let people forget all the issues. Times have changed.

    Classic had many issues people ignoring/forgot. If it happens, I be there having so much fun at the sight of failure that noone could see beforehand. I wish you the best, and have 0 issues with your or anyone feedback, but I can't continue with that blind optimism believing the success is a fact. It happened over and over during DAoCs lifetime, and then pokeface that nothings that simple.

    The reality is DAoC doesn't attract the kinds of players that are suited for Ywain. BS DAoC is absurdly complicated in comparison to classic DAoC on a class basis alone. Unless BS can figure out a way to bring in competitive players, you're stuck with a largely casual crowd. Managing less skills and /uses is way more casual friendly than what is currently on Ywain. Classic is simple. Add QoL and it's extremely fun. It's DAoC without the fluff. That's the crowd this game still attracts. No Facebook ad is going to bring in the crowd Ywain needs. This is why BS needs a vision of what they want the game to be and who their target audience is. Right now, no one knows and it looks like they're desperately shooting in the dark to stay afloat.

    To quote myself, classic "might" be a way forward, but might be not. As said I have no issues with feedback, but arguing about guarantees, and being dead sure on things I am bored of.

    Let's see the past that led here.

    DAoC reached 250.000 subscribers when SI came out, then started declining to 200.000. ToA came, that's where it peaked afaik about 260k. After that slowly declined.

    Catacombs didn't recover it, neither LOTM was that popular. However during Dragon Campaign era (before DF revamp) many did agree game was at a good place.

    What I am trying to point at, that nothings unsolveable. To a previous commenter, no I didn't mean Catacombs revamp. Fixing Ywain is an option, and regardless of a new server it needs maintenance anyway.

    We can throw BS under the bus, but behind all the trashy changes there is this lovely community on some. We want new items! We don't want new items! Broken keeps! No broken keeps! Broken keeps! Classes need new abilities! Classes need less abilities! We want classic! We don't want classic! Faster leveling! Slower leveling! Faster leveling!

    It gets exhausting. Just take in account, that while any here might be the genius idea that saves daoc, but based on past, it's rather unlikely its all of them. If we pull towards 1 way, and 1 way only, on a fail we can't point our fingers towards the dev team. Give them options, it's their job as a developer to be smarter then an average player who thinks they are a game developers.

    Obv thats not mainly towards you Tyrantanic.

    Edit: Also do not think that "QoL improvements" changes are as simple as writing it down on a forum post, just because it's easier then to list what to fix on ywain. We wan't transfers, seasons, huge changes on classic (yes many QoL thing is), thats alot of effort to do properly. Can try, but it aint easy.

    I think the most upsetting aspect about Broadswords approach is they gave an illusion that the community, as a whole, had input with their Knights Program and podcasts. Yet, each patch went against the community and favored a select few. Clearly, Broadsword has no vision of what they want DAoC to be. For any meaningful progress to be made, they need one. If DAoC is meant to be a highly competitive PvP game, then they better start promoting it as such. Bring back tournaments. Start leaderboards. Get sponsored events. Sell it for what it is. If DAoC is meant to be a PvE / RvR focused MMO then it's time to reel in the casuals and bring back the simplicity of classic DAoC. Right now, Ywain has an identity crisis that needs to be solved before moving forward. Otherwise, to your point, they'll be chasing mixed messages from the community which will inevitably lead to its collapse.

    Mind = blown...

    Well said!
    Listen to the people - they will guide you..
  • I think many people want a new server and its worth a try.

    Problem many people have with Ywain is that "everyone is RR12". I dont know how to fix that.
  • High rr mean nothing in bad players hands .
  • I know. But many people think it does.
  • edited February 1 PM
    Kroko wrote: »
    I think many people want a new server and its worth a try.

    Problem many people have with Ywain is that "everyone is RR12". I dont know how to fix that.

    You can't. And you won't. I mean, BS won't.

    [edited]

    [edited] Meaning: Leveling is faster (higher xp rate), it's more accessible (.. /train command on the fly, no need to go to capital everytime you level -> promoting grouping) and it has good custom features. But it did all in a way that did not make you feel you were not playing classic DAoC. It felt like you were playing true classic DAoC, but adapted to the modern gaming world, if that makes sense.
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • i would try anything lol
    if and only if you could only play one realm and maybe a total of 4 characters.....
  • So, you want somewhere new to fight. Good for you. How about one that caters to solo players. No expansions. No bots. No supremacy potions. No crafting. No water breath. No custom ui's, either. No third party programs. Original xp and loot drops. No horse. No group. No bg. Have at it.
  • -1-3-5-8 man areas :)

    could even try on pend to see if it works
  • AlaskaMike wrote: »
    @Gildar Once a new server happens, you don't need to touch crafting really. It'll already become super important because it's a lot easier to craft than it is to farm items. Reason it lacks utility now is because of curse/OW/whatever else has been farmed to heck and back already. If it's an SI server, that was basically the height of crafting.

    @Enkertons and @Hellblast
    Don't really know why all the hostility for the new server. Hipefully you realize that once a new server happens for subs only, BS is now free to DRASTICALLY open up EC restrictions on ywain. Which would benefit you both immensely.

    BS makes some interesting decisions sometimes, but they're not stupid. There's no way they make a new server without basically making ywain 98% free to play. That will boost ywain population enough to compensate for the people moving to the new server. Again, keeping you both happy on multiple levels.

    If you don't want to play the new server, don't. Ywain will still be there exactly for your play style. Good luck out there!

    When I'm being hostile, you'll know it. I'm not hostile towards a new server - I'm completely disinterested and unwilling to redo mind-numbing PVE experiences.
  • edited February 3 PM
    Kroko wrote: »
    I think many people want a new server and its worth a try.

    Problem many people have with Ywain is that "everyone is RR12". I dont know how to fix that.

    TL:DR
    1. F2P Model (already in)
    2. Classic + SI + Housing server
    3. 6-12 Months later TEMPORARY new Ywain server (4-6 month duration for the Fresh Economy, no RR12s, super geared toons, and marketed at attracting new, returning, and classic server players since it'll be a new fresh start server)
    4. Merge temporary Ywain server with old Ywain. (Those on temporary server should be established enough to play with the big boy RR12s of old ywain once merged).
    5. Evaluate current state of game, sub counts, finances (hopefully shown growth, profits, sustainability, player retention), etc.
    6. Release next big thing whatever that is at that point.


    I feel like they have a strong chance at successfully attracting new players to Ywain with a temporary server (with merging after some time) system if made in conjunction with a strategy of utilizing the player base of Classic + SI server.

    Opening a new ywain server now could help somewhat, but it would mostly only be catering to attempting to bring people back to a fresh new server, but I feel like they would be missing out on a HUGE opportunity if they only did that, or did it before the classic server. That huge opportunity is capitalizing on the Classic+SI fans on their upcoming Classic+SI+Housing server.

    Here's what I mean and what I would envision as a strategy to bring in a fresh player base, please hear me out.

    Ywain is and stays as it always was.

    1. --> The new F2P model has been implemented. GREAT! This is step 1 as it sets up an unlimited free trial system for new and returning players. Perfect this system over time.

    2. --> A Classic + SI + Housing server is released and brings back a large player base wanting that experience. Side note: Remember that this server required a paid subscription which I'll touch on later.

    3. --> 6-12 Months into the classic server as that server matures a bit, hopefully right around the time this player base starts getting bored. BS announces a fresh new ywain clone seasonal server that will run for 6 months and then merge with old ywain.

    4. --> Release the 6 month ywain clone which basically sets up a current era DAOC server with a fresh economy, and all players starting on the same page.

    5. --> 6 months should be more than enough time for the people of that temporary ywain clone to build and establish high RR characters and build wealth which will make it not be nearly as big of a deal merging that back with old ywain to keep up with the big boy RR12s on old ywain.

    6. --> At this point BS would be free to assess the current state, player sub numbers, etc to decide where to go from there. Do they rinse/repeat the process? Do they try a new ruleset server never seen before?

    Pros of this strategy:

    1. --> By releasing the classic server first, you have an assumed player base that came for that ruleset, but after time will probably start getting bored, especially those who went hard into the server. A fresh ywain server by that point may be appealing for those classic players to get them to play both servers along side each other. That could be amazing for player retention.

    a. --> Remember that the Classic server requires paid sub, which means that if a classic server player comes to play on the new ywain clone, they would have all the same premium membership benefits as any others which helps to set and level the playing field to any of the old ywain vets that come to the new ywain as well.

    b. --> There are no long-time RR12 players with unlimited plat and gear sitting there able to just steamroll new and returning players. Sure, they'll already have an advantage because they'll know the current era DAOC more than said new players to current era DAOC, but they won't be sitting on RR12 and perfectly templated gear to further increase that advantage.

    c. --> This should also be I would hope a bit more acceptable to those who don't want to lose their old ywain progress, because this would only be a temporary server that would merge with old ywain.

    aa. ---> On that note, remember above I mentioned that a temporary ywain clone would let these new players build and establish high RR characters and build wealth which will make it not be nearly as big of a deal merging that back with old ywain to keep up with the big boy RR12s on old ywain.


    Cons:

    1. --> RISK: There's always risk, but to do nothing else now that the f2p model is out and some of the initial feelings and numbers are in, I personally see DAOC has a challenging future. So, yes the strategy above is a risk, but so is doing nothing, and doing nothing is I feel a more guaranteed high risk of eventual failure.

    2. --> This will take a LONG time to see all of the fruits of the labor of a strategy like this, but as a side pro to this con it also allows BS to evaluate and assess things at a slower pace to see the reception of each iteration of this strategy.

    3. --> It would mean the temporary time of the ywain clone claiming the few players on old ywain and old ywain becoming as close to a dead server as one could get during this time. But once the temporary new ywain merges back with the old, it may become a larger server than it's been in a very long time.


    The ending scenario I envisioned if I had my way and implemented the strategy I outlined above is:

    Once that temporary server merges back with old ywain, I would be willing to bet seeing many of the old ywain vets returning along with all of the new players that established themselves on the new ywain all being thrown in together and it may very well spark a new golden age of DAOC where you have a vibrant player base in both the classic and current era DAOC who switch back and forth between classic and current era when they're bored with the other and want to change it up but still have it be DAOC at its core.

    This is highly inspired by what I've seen from how Everquest has thrived and gained a highly strong player base in both live and their TLP servers and seeing how TLP players was actually in the long term a boon to the current era Everquest servers because they would play both a TLP and a current era server)

    Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this book lol.. :wink:

    @Broadsword @John_Broadsword @Carol_Broadsword
    Post edited by Insedeel on
  • Insedeel wrote: »
    TL:DR
    1. F2P Model (already in)
    2. Classic + SI + Housing server
    3. 6-12 Months later TEMPORARY new Ywain server (4-6 month duration for the Fresh Economy, no RR12s, super geared toons, and marketed at attracting new, returning, and classic server players since it'll be a new fresh start server)
    4. Merge temporary Ywain server with old Ywain. (Those on temporary server should be established enough to play with the big boy RR12s of old ywain once merged).
    5. Evaluate current state of game, sub counts, finances (hopefully shown growth, profits, sustainability, player retention), etc.
    6. Release next big thing whatever that is at that point.


    I feel like they have a strong chance at successfully attracting new players to Ywain with a temporary server (with merging after some time) system if made in conjunction with a strategy of utilizing the player base of Classic + SI server.

    Opening a new ywain server now could help somewhat, but it would mostly only be catering to attempting to bring people back to a fresh new server, but I feel like they would be missing out on a HUGE opportunity if they only did that, or did it before the classic server. That huge opportunity is capitalizing on the Classic+SI fans on their upcoming Classic+SI+Housing server.

    Here's what I mean and what I would envision as a strategy to bring in a fresh player base, please hear me out.

    Ywain is and stays as it always was.

    1. --> The new F2P model has been implemented. GREAT! This is step 1 as it sets up an unlimited free trial system for new and returning players. Perfect this system over time.

    2. --> A Classic + SI + Housing server is released and brings back a large player base wanting that experience. Side note: Remember that this server required a paid subscription which I'll touch on later.

    3. --> 6-12 Months into the classic server as that server matures a bit, hopefully right around the time this player base starts getting bored. BS announces a fresh new ywain clone seasonal server that will run for 6 months and then merge with old ywain.

    4. --> Release the 6 month ywain clone which basically sets up a current era DAOC server with a fresh economy, and all players starting on the same page.

    5. --> 6 months should be more than enough time for the people of that temporary ywain clone to build and establish high RR characters and build wealth which will make it not be nearly as big of a deal merging that back with old ywain to keep up with the big boy RR12s on old ywain.

    6. --> At this point BS would be free to assess the current state, player sub numbers, etc to decide where to go from there. Do they rinse/repeat the process? Do they try a new ruleset server never seen before?

    Pros of this strategy:

    1. --> By releasing the classic server first, you have an assumed player base that came for that ruleset, but after time will probably start getting bored, especially those who went hard into the server. A fresh ywain server by that point may be appealing for those classic players to get them to play both servers along side each other. That could be amazing for player retention.

    a. --> Remember that the Classic server requires paid sub, which means that if a classic server player comes to play on the new ywain clone, they would have all the same premium membership benefits as any others which helps to set and level the playing field to any of the old ywain vets that come to the new ywain as well.

    b. --> There are no long-time RR12 players with unlimited plat and gear sitting there able to just steamroll new and returning players. Sure, they'll already have an advantage because they'll know the current era DAOC more than said new players to current era DAOC, but they won't be sitting on RR12 and perfectly templated gear to further increase that advantage.

    c. --> This should also be I would hope a bit more acceptable to those who don't want to lose their old ywain progress, because this would only be a temporary server that would merge with old ywain.

    aa. ---> On that note, remember above I mentioned that a temporary ywain clone would let these new players build and establish high RR characters and build wealth which will make it not be nearly as big of a deal merging that back with old ywain to keep up with the big boy RR12s on old ywain.


    Cons:

    1. --> RISK: There's always risk, but to do nothing else now that the f2p model is out and some of the initial feelings and numbers are in, I personally see DAOC has a challenging future. So, yes the strategy above is a risk, but so is doing nothing, and doing nothing is I feel a more guaranteed high risk of eventual failure.

    2. --> This will take a LONG time to see all of the fruits of the labor of a strategy like this, but as a side pro to this con it also allows BS to evaluate and assess things at a slower pace to see the reception of each iteration of this strategy.

    3. --> It would mean the temporary time of the ywain clone claiming the few players on old ywain and old ywain becoming as close to a dead server as one could get during this time. But once the temporary new ywain merges back with the old, it may become a larger server than it's been in a very long time.


    The ending scenario I envisioned if I had my way and implemented the strategy I outlined above is:

    Once that temporary server merges back with old ywain, I would be willing to bet seeing many of the old ywain vets returning along with all of the new players that established themselves on the new ywain all being thrown in together and it may very well spark a new golden age of DAOC where you have a vibrant player base in both the classic and current era DAOC who switch back and forth between classic and current era when they're bored with the other and want to change it up but still have it be DAOC at its core.

    This is highly inspired by what I've seen from how Everquest has thrived and gained a highly strong player base in both live and their TLP servers and seeing how TLP players was actually in the long term a boon to the current era Everquest servers because they would play both a TLP and a current era server)

    Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this book lol.. :wink:

    @Broadsword @John_Broadsword @Carol_Broadsword

    I think Insedeel is on point here.

    The characters on the Classic + SI + Housing server should probably be reset to 0 RPs now and then, but let the characters remain the same in regards to level, gear, inventory, gold, tradeskill level. After a few seasons the casuals will start on the same degree of optimized templates as the really dedicated players.
  • That's the point though. Can't expect casuals and new players to organize their own raids. Raids happen more often when everyone needs to complete them. Gotta reset items to zero too. But now it becomes an instant 50 server every so often. Now there's no one to group with for new players/casuals.

    Reset everything each season, that's the only way to do it.
  • I think that since no new equipment is introduced that makes the present equipment obsolete the best equipment will be available on consignment merchants.

    Some guilds/players will want to farm Caer Sidi, Tuscaran Glacier, Galladori, Cuuldurach, Golestandt, Gjalpinulva and Summoner's Hall for respec stones and to make plat.
  • Cant wait for classic + SI + housing server
  • I ain’t playin’ another server unless I can transfer all my crafters.
    Da ant familyDa fly familyDa spider family
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/daredant
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