The importance of transparency

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Comments

  • i would like to put two procs on my crafted armor :)
  • edited February 11 PM
    I was one who said they need to fix bugs @Borivik, and you might be right, but here are my questions....

    1. You mention the Jord crash. This bug didn't always exist. I never heard of this when I played live from SI release through Catacombs. Not for sure when it showed up, but there was a time that it didn't exist. That tells me that it can be fixed. Something that BS or EA did caused this.

    2. Another bug is the dream conquer band. This was an item and a new charge BS put in. When you change ANY bracer after popping the charge you lose the buff. No other charge does this, so again, that tells me its able to be fixed.

    3. I agree that the old code is a big part of the problem, but if that is the case then BS really needs to think long and hard about implementing new stuff unless it has been thoroughly tested.

    4. You are correct that maybe some things can't be fixed. Then BS needs to just come out and say it as well as why it can't be fixed. For a game that charges a monthly fee they seem to have a hard time staying on top of these bugs, and every new patch just seems to bring more. Maybe instead quit putting resources into developing new content and instead focus those resources into cleaning up current content.

    5. Sorry, but you are wrong about the CSR's. You should be able to get a reply to an in game appeal in less than 5 days. The only time I have received a response to a problem in less time is if I contact @Carol_Broadsword myself on the forums or in discord. A. That is not Carols job. B. If she can respond than that means somebody else should have been able to as well. If you want to have an in game appeal system then you need to pay somebody to monitor it and respond. I shouldn't have to "know somebody", send a private pm on forums, or have to be on discord in order to get a response. Sure, there are some things that will take time to process, but if I see a guy bug abusing and appeal it I shouldn't get a reply 5 days later asking questions and saying they will check into it. It's too late by that point.
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    I was one who said they need to fix bugs @Borivik, and you might be right, but here are my questions....

    1. You mention the Jord crash. This bug didn't always exist. I never heard of this when I played live from SI release through Catacombs. Not for sure when it showed up, but there was a time that it didn't exist. That tells me that it can be fixed. Something that BS or EA did caused this.

    2. Another bug is the dream conquer band. This was an item and a new charge BS put in. When you change ANY bracer after popping the charge you lose the buff. No other charge does this, so again, that tells me its able to be fixed.

    3. I agree that the old code is a big part of the problem, but if that is the case then BS really needs to think long and hard about implementing new stuff unless it has been thoroughly tested.

    4. You are correct that maybe some things can't be fixed. Then BS needs to just come out and say it as well as why it can't be fixed. For a game that charges a monthly fee they seem to have a hard time staying on top of these bugs, and every new patch just seems to bring more. Maybe instead quit putting resources into developing new content and instead focus those resources into cleaning up current content.

    5. Sorry, but you are wrong about the CSR's. You should be able to get a reply to an in game appeal in less than 5 days. The only time I have received a response to a problem in less time is if I contact @Carol_Broadsword myself on the forums or in discord. A. That is not Carols job. B. If she can respond than that means somebody else should have been able to as well. If you want to have an in game appeal system then you need to pay somebody to monitor it and respond. I shouldn't have to "know somebody", send a private pm on forums, or have to be on discord in order to get a response. Sure, there are some things that will take time to process, but if I see a guy bug abusing and appeal it I shouldn't get a reply 5 days later asking questions and saying they will check into it. It's too late by that point.

    Thank you for that response! The reason it's so hard to fix is because Mythic had no idea what they were doing when making the game (as hardly anyone did back then) just making it worked was a huge deal for MMO's, now if you implement something, you can bet something else will break as a resort of that and whatever broke...probably wont be able to be fixed because of how garbled the code is. With that I'm not trying to justify it, im just trying to explain why. As far as the Dream Conquer band bug? I never viewed that as a bug...you should not be able to keep a buff on after taking said item off, thats why we got the annoying having to keep 5 different weapons in inventory to swap as other items too, thats not how the game was intended on running. Also it is true what I said about CSR's...hire only 5 people and you are literally spending over 100k a year extra, they dont have funds like that...Hell! Even Blizzard have those funds but never had a ticket responce time of more than 12h and that was with a huge building of just GM's whose only sole purpose was to answer tickets...When I say they do a great job of answering what they can, when you cross over to speak to Carol, yeah its not her job but she does it anyway...Do you know how many employee's use the phrase "its not my job?" But they all still do it because they are good people, they love this community. I know its wrong having to go to discord for help but maybe thats just how things are now? I mean hell, its not like they can remove the appeal system because appeal system should be working more like this other way...ALSO and most importantly...your asking them to go back and try to fix bugs that have been there for so long (which is apperently not game breaking) and fix those instead of trying to add new content to bring forth new players, keep the current players interested...you cant have it both ways...either concentrate on the core game and fix whatever and just let the game die even faster, or keep adding in new events and content and atleast go out with a bang
  • edited February 11 PM
    Borivik wrote: »
    Thank you for that response! The reason it's so hard to fix is because Mythic had no idea what they were doing when making the game (as hardly anyone did back then) just making it worked was a huge deal for MMO's, now if you implement something, you can bet something else will break as a resort of that and whatever broke...probably wont be able to be fixed because of how garbled the code is. With that I'm not trying to justify it, im just trying to explain why. As far as the Dream Conquer band bug? I never viewed that as a bug...you should not be able to keep a buff on after taking said item off, thats why we got the annoying having to keep 5 different weapons in inventory to swap as other items too, thats not how the game was intended on running. Also it is true what I said about CSR's...hire only 5 people and you are literally spending over 100k a year extra, they dont have funds like that...Hell! Even Blizzard have those funds but never had a ticket responce time of more than 12h and that was with a huge building of just GM's whose only sole purpose was to answer tickets...When I say they do a great job of answering what they can, when you cross over to speak to Carol, yeah its not her job but she does it anyway...Do you know how many employee's use the phrase "its not my job?" But they all still do it because they are good people, they love this community. I know its wrong having to go to discord for help but maybe thats just how things are now? I mean hell, its not like they can remove the appeal system because appeal system should be working more like this other way...ALSO and most importantly...your asking them to go back and try to fix bugs that have been there for so long (which is apperently not game breaking) and fix those instead of trying to add new content to bring forth new players, keep the current players interested...you cant have it both ways...either concentrate on the core game and fix whatever and just let the game die even faster, or keep adding in new events and content and atleast go out with a bang

    First I have to comment on the part I bolded and italicized. I am not switching out the item I am using. As a matter of fact, you can have the Dream Conqueror band equiped and NOTHING in the other wrist slot. Pop the buff and then put ANY other bracer in the EMPTY slot and lose your buff. No other charge works this way. I can pop the OW boon off of ring charge and switch out that ring or another and keep the buff up. I reported this in June. It should be a fairly simple fix, I would think, but sadly it's still not fixed. https://forums.darkageofcamelot.com/discussion/291/problem-with-band-of-the-dream-conquer-bracelet-buff#latest

    Now, on to the rest of your post. I get the code is garbled. I truly understand that, but things like the Jord crash bug have been there since I started here 2 years ago. It didn't exist when I played prior to this. So at some point they changed something, it cause these crashes, its been reported hundreds (if not thousands of times) and yet nothing. If it was because they changed X, Y, or Z and it can't be fixed than that is what they should say. Instead we get replies from BS like, "We are trying to figure this out, more to come." Or, "Try doing X, Y, or Z fix. That didn't help? Well we are working on it..." Either it can be fixed or it can't. If it can't then fine, just say it can't and move on. Don't tease people that it might be fixed and then 2 years later it's still not fixed. The same can be said for the Band of Dream Conqueror band bug. I keep getting told it's being looked and and fixed, only to then find out it's not.

    Same with the CSR's. I get that to hire 5 new people would be a huge cost to them. However, then modify the current reporting system. Some appeals will take time to do. I get that. If i'm trying to look up old accounts from years ago and need assistance, I understand it may take a few days to get back with me. However, if some random player is up on the safe pad portal area of EV killing people and I report them then I should hear something back within a decent amount of time. Not 5 days later. (This EXACT situation happened with me multiple times.) However, I can hop on Discord and pm Carol and get some sort of a reply back quickly. I'm not saying they need to remedy the situation, but a simple, "Thank you for the appeal. I will look into this and take the appropriate action." Instead I get an email back like 5 days later asking for more information. Sorry, but I didn't take detailed notes of the cheater from 5 days ago.

    If you want to be a business than you need to act like a business. That means having a proper staff and being able to produce a polished product. BS could certainly do more to fix the many bugs on this game, and to prevent further bugs then they need to do a MUCH better job of checking for issues before putting things into the game. Using the Jord crash bug as an example again, if they had listened to people as soon as this started happening they would have been able to identify what is causing it by looking at what they changed. At this point they would have to go back through 2+ years of stuff to try and figure that out. The bug didn't exist before and now it does. That is just one of MANY examples of bugs. Sure, it would take away resources from developments, but between Cursed and OW (the 2 biggest additions to the game since Laby) I believe most people would have been more happy had they put those resources to improving game play and fixing bugs as opposed to putting in those 2 new PvE raids, which have caused more problems than good.

    Also, I don't want you to think that I'm arguing or upset with you. I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your original post. However, there have been a handful of times I thought about quitting since coming back to live, and ALL of those have resulted from crappy bug's and crashes. Things that shouldn't exist on a game that I pay a monthly fee to play. Now if this was some free server or game then I would take it all with a grain of salt. I pay for this service and I expect to get a decent product for my $.

    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • I agree with you on everything but the bracer bug...I am not taking it as you arguing or getting mad, im not either. I was just simply explaining why, didnt mean i agreed with it.
  • Borivik wrote: »
    I agree with you on everything but the bracer bug...I am not taking it as you arguing or getting mad, im not either. I was just simply explaining why, didnt mean i agreed with it.

    Amen! I just know that some people see my walls of text as a wall of anger or some sort of aggression. I just like to be clear and explain myself thoroughly. For the record, I don't think the bracer bug is game breaking, but its little bugs combined with big bugs that bother me.
  • The appeal system is quite confusing, so if we are going FTP then replacing it would be a good idea. It should be quite separate from the main codebase, so low risk to replace, A great way to reduce support costs is to enable a self-serve model by making all issues reported visible to all. This allows players to perhaps resolve issues themselves because they can see how a previous identical issue was resolved. This could run right off the herald. It would also provide "transparency" as to the players who have been reported as cheaters.
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    I was one who said they need to fix bugs @Borivik, and you might be right, but here are my questions....

    1. You mention the Jord crash. This bug didn't always exist. I never heard of this when I played live from SI release through Catacombs. Not for sure when it showed up, but there was a time that it didn't exist. That tells me that it can be fixed. Something that BS or EA did caused this.

    2. Another bug is the dream conquer band. This was an item and a new charge BS put in. When you change ANY bracer after popping the charge you lose the buff. No other charge does this, so again, that tells me its able to be fixed.

    3. I agree that the old code is a big part of the problem, but if that is the case then BS really needs to think long and hard about implementing new stuff unless it has been thoroughly tested.

    4. You are correct that maybe some things can't be fixed. Then BS needs to just come out and say it as well as why it can't be fixed. For a game that charges a monthly fee they seem to have a hard time staying on top of these bugs, and every new patch just seems to bring more. Maybe instead quit putting resources into developing new content and instead focus those resources into cleaning up current content.

    5. Sorry, but you are wrong about the CSR's. You should be able to get a reply to an in game appeal in less than 5 days. The only time I have received a response to a problem in less time is if I contact @Carol_Broadsword myself on the forums or in discord. A. That is not Carols job. B. If she can respond than that means somebody else should have been able to as well. If you want to have an in game appeal system then you need to pay somebody to monitor it and respond. I shouldn't have to "know somebody", send a private pm on forums, or have to be on discord in order to get a response. Sure, there are some things that will take time to process, but if I see a guy bug abusing and appeal it I shouldn't get a reply 5 days later asking questions and saying they will check into it. It's too late by that point.

    i agree
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    Borivik wrote: »
    Thank you for that response! The reason it's so hard to fix is because Mythic had no idea what they were doing when making the game (as hardly anyone did back then) just making it worked was a huge deal for MMO's, now if you implement something, you can bet something else will break as a resort of that and whatever broke...probably wont be able to be fixed because of how garbled the code is. With that I'm not trying to justify it, im just trying to explain why. As far as the Dream Conquer band bug? I never viewed that as a bug...you should not be able to keep a buff on after taking said item off, thats why we got the annoying having to keep 5 different weapons in inventory to swap as other items too, thats not how the game was intended on running. Also it is true what I said about CSR's...hire only 5 people and you are literally spending over 100k a year extra, they dont have funds like that...Hell! Even Blizzard have those funds but never had a ticket responce time of more than 12h and that was with a huge building of just GM's whose only sole purpose was to answer tickets...When I say they do a great job of answering what they can, when you cross over to speak to Carol, yeah its not her job but she does it anyway...Do you know how many employee's use the phrase "its not my job?" But they all still do it because they are good people, they love this community. I know its wrong having to go to discord for help but maybe thats just how things are now? I mean hell, its not like they can remove the appeal system because appeal system should be working more like this other way...ALSO and most importantly...your asking them to go back and try to fix bugs that have been there for so long (which is apperently not game breaking) and fix those instead of trying to add new content to bring forth new players, keep the current players interested...you cant have it both ways...either concentrate on the core game and fix whatever and just let the game die even faster, or keep adding in new events and content and atleast go out with a bang

    First I have to comment on the part I bolded and italicized. I am not switching out the item I am using. As a matter of fact, you can have the Dream Conqueror band equiped and NOTHING in the other wrist slot. Pop the buff and then put ANY other bracer in the EMPTY slot and lose your buff. No other charge works this way. I can pop the OW boon off of ring charge and switch out that ring or another and keep the buff up. I reported this in June. It should be a fairly simple fix, I would think, but sadly it's still not fixed. https://forums.darkageofcamelot.com/discussion/291/problem-with-band-of-the-dream-conquer-bracelet-buff#latest

    Now, on to the rest of your post. I get the code is garbled. I truly understand that, but things like the Jord crash bug have been there since I started here 2 years ago. It didn't exist when I played prior to this. So at some point they changed something, it cause these crashes, its been reported hundreds (if not thousands of times) and yet nothing. If it was because they changed X, Y, or Z and it can't be fixed than that is what they should say. Instead we get replies from BS like, "We are trying to figure this out, more to come." Or, "Try doing X, Y, or Z fix. That didn't help? Well we are working on it..." Either it can be fixed or it can't. If it can't then fine, just say it can't and move on. Don't tease people that it might be fixed and then 2 years later it's still not fixed. The same can be said for the Band of Dream Conqueror band bug. I keep getting told it's being looked and and fixed, only to then find out it's not.

    Same with the CSR's. I get that to hire 5 new people would be a huge cost to them. However, then modify the current reporting system. Some appeals will take time to do. I get that. If i'm trying to look up old accounts from years ago and need assistance, I understand it may take a few days to get back with me. However, if some random player is up on the safe pad portal area of EV killing people and I report them then I should hear something back within a decent amount of time. Not 5 days later. (This EXACT situation happened with me multiple times.) However, I can hop on Discord and pm Carol and get some sort of a reply back quickly. I'm not saying they need to remedy the situation, but a simple, "Thank you for the appeal. I will look into this and take the appropriate action." Instead I get an email back like 5 days later asking for more information. Sorry, but I didn't take detailed notes of the cheater from 5 days ago.

    If you want to be a business than you need to act like a business. That means having a proper staff and being able to produce a polished product. BS could certainly do more to fix the many bugs on this game, and to prevent further bugs then they need to do a MUCH better job of checking for issues before putting things into the game. Using the Jord crash bug as an example again, if they had listened to people as soon as this started happening they would have been able to identify what is causing it by looking at what they changed. At this point they would have to go back through 2+ years of stuff to try and figure that out. The bug didn't exist before and now it does. That is just one of MANY examples of bugs. Sure, it would take away resources from developments, but between Cursed and OW (the 2 biggest additions to the game since Laby) I believe most people would have been more happy had they put those resources to improving game play and fixing bugs as opposed to putting in those 2 new PvE raids, which have caused more problems than good.

    Also, I don't want you to think that I'm arguing or upset with you. I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your original post. However, there have been a handful of times I thought about quitting since coming back to live, and ALL of those have resulted from crappy bug's and crashes. Things that shouldn't exist on a game that I pay a monthly fee to play. Now if this was some free server or game then I would take it all with a grain of salt. I pay for this service and I expect to get a decent product for my $.

    i agree
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • BS could learn a thing or two from the bug tracker systems of those unmentionable things... they work.
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Muylae wrote: »
    BS could learn a thing or two from the bug tracker systems of those unmentionable things... they work.

    and shaming cheaters,... and transparency.. ... I said it in a post before. I honestly believe that the right people were watching this board along with other boards, and the community ideas were listened to. Just happened to be implemented by someone other than BS. Have to ask yourself. Does it look like it worked?
  • Sleepwell wrote: »
    Muylae wrote: »
    BS could learn a thing or two from the bug tracker systems of those unmentionable things... they work.

    and shaming cheaters,... and transparency.. ... I said it in a post before. I honestly believe that the right people were watching this board along with other boards, and the community ideas were listened to. Just happened to be implemented by someone other than BS. Have to ask yourself. Does it look like it worked?

    and add in realm timers.
  • Muylae wrote: »
    BS could learn a thing or two from the bug tracker systems of those unmentionable things... they work.

    We use a similar tracking system at my job. When a tech or an engineer opens a ticket, it sends a response to whomever opened the ticket. Everything done within the ticket at the point, whether it is opening, escalating, closing, putting a ticket on hold, is communicated to the sender via workflow (automated). The workflow can be configured so that everyone has access to view the ticket, but only the engineer can modify it (escalate/close). Helps with transparency and saves time and resources. That would solve some of the issues. If they don't have the time to tell people what is going on.. or where their ticket stands, let automation do it for them. Unless they don't have the resource opening or closing tickets in the first place. That may be embarrassing. I'm not suggesting that is the case, but i guess its possilbe.
  • Tbh i never had an issue with the CSR responses.
    Tested it yesterday again on a minor issue and got an response 5min after i logged off.
    CSR answered the Q but the answer was imo not complete and i was gonna reply with a follow up Q for my own satisfaction but that was not possible cus of a noreply mail.
    It can be better ofc but CSR works
  • Borivik wrote: »
    The reason it's so hard to fix is because Mythic had no idea what they were doing when making the game (as hardly anyone did back then) just making it worked was a huge deal for MMO's,

    What a bs..Mythic did know exactly what they were doing. As a game developer it is more than enough if the coders know how something works, there is no need to document each line of code for that case that a third company took over 10 years after game release.

    If i have problems to understand how things work i`d ask ppl that know how those thing works. Afaik are the ppl that wrote the core code not dead. Ok, a problem could be that they wouldn`t work for EA. ;)

    I could puke if i read this kind of Mythic bashing, without Mythic (and BS ofc, they do what they can) there would be no DAoC.
  • Auf_Nymf wrote: »
    Tbh i never had an issue with the CSR responses.
    Tested it yesterday again on a minor issue and got an response 5min after i logged off.
    CSR answered the Q but the answer was imo not complete and i was gonna reply with a follow up Q for my own satisfaction but that was not possible cus of a noreply mail.
    It can be better ofc but CSR works

    My experience is very different. I abandon all of my support issues.As far as I am concerned there are no CSRs in DAoC.
  • stewbeedoo wrote: »
    Auf_Nymf wrote: »
    Tbh i never had an issue with the CSR responses.
    Tested it yesterday again on a minor issue and got an response 5min after i logged off.
    CSR answered the Q but the answer was imo not complete and i was gonna reply with a follow up Q for my own satisfaction but that was not possible cus of a noreply mail.
    It can be better ofc but CSR works

    My experience is very different. I abandon all of my support issues.As far as I am concerned there are no CSRs in DAoC.

    You have to emergency appeal or it won't get answered from what I've noticed. I just stopped appealing even when I see blatant 'program' use in the game.
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    stewbeedoo wrote: »
    Auf_Nymf wrote: »
    Tbh i never had an issue with the CSR responses.
    Tested it yesterday again on a minor issue and got an response 5min after i logged off.
    CSR answered the Q but the answer was imo not complete and i was gonna reply with a follow up Q for my own satisfaction but that was not possible cus of a noreply mail.
    It can be better ofc but CSR works

    My experience is very different. I abandon all of my support issues.As far as I am concerned there are no CSRs in DAoC.

    You have to emergency appeal or it won't get answered from what I've noticed. I just stopped appealing even when I see blatant 'program' use in the game.

    Same...

    I'd rather get a direct answers. Something of the sort "Yes, we know they used a hack to cheat, but they have 4 accounts. It would be financially irresponsible to ban someone who pays the rent". Maybe thats the way i feel anyway, when my i send those appeals with proof and nothing ever comes of it. I do get a nice form message 5 days later.
  • Lol, that would be jaw dropping and awesome if they said that @Sleepwell!! I wouldn't know whether to punch a hole in my monitor in anger or applaud that sort of honesty.
  • edited February 13 PM
    Borivik wrote: »
    I have 5 cents to give that I think is very needed for everyone here. First of all Brut, stop bashing players just because you put more time into the game! I swear if BS started TV commercials and thousands of new players came, they would leave because you and MANY others would be strutting their crap and bashing people for not knowing things. Also about the topic of adding more CSR's...how much do they make a year? Let me just use $20k a year as an example because its not that much and CSR isn't that high of a position but imagine if you will...a game that makes barely enough to just keep the servers up (why we shouldnt decrease the monthly) you want to add atleast 5 full time CSR's because less than 5 wouldn't change anything...thats over $100k a year just on 5 employee's! I also saw on a comment above that this is such a old game, shouldnt be that bad to fix things...its that bad to fix things BECAUSE its such an old game. You try to update servers, programs or other tech to improve the game and the technology that is running this game is so old that you cant update it or else the legs would crumble apart and servers wouldnt be up anymore. I know a little about coding and my 14 year old niece knows more about coding than the employee's at Mythic did/does and thats why its so hard to fix anything, the code is so jumbled that you cant fix things that i see players mention EVERYDAY like cant increase 200p maximum, Jord crashing spot...stop asking because it cant be fixed...not that they arent getting to it, but because it cant. Also to what Xyorman said "if the game is fun, people will stay" actually no...how many games have you installed because it was fun, you havent uninstalled it because you "might" want to play it one day, if you dont advertise and get a stream of new players, it will eventually die out like it is. Also the employee's at BS is doing a great job of responding to what they can, maybe because they cant afford to hire more, it seems like your going unheard...but Xyorman and Brut, its people like you that we got the crap updates on the classes, now your the ones complaining about them? you told them to give every class a heal, you told them to make things easier....THEY DID IT...and they need to give you a 1-2 year plan? shut the hell up and go play your game, let the big boys run their company, no company is going to come to even their small time employee's saying this is what is gonna happen, especially their customers. this is my 5 cents, i know the grammar is FAR from good because i dont like to concentrate on that unless im at work, so yeah :) much love to BS, thank you for all you do

    REally -- you mean this????:but Xyorman and Brut, its people like you that we got the crap updates on the classes, now your the ones complaining about them, you know NOTHING of which you speak. People play if a game is fun, period -- whether they continue to play is based on how fun it is and their time period -- not much more than that...if you think I <wont speak for Brut> asked for every class able to heal --- Seriously --- you need a new hat <try actual tin not aluminum> --- of the myriad nonsense posted here and elsewhere this is the least grounded in reality in quite some time

    Post edited by Xyorman on
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