New keep upgrades and exploits being used to defend them.

@Carol_Broadsword OK, the upgraded keeps are great I think, it really gives a smaller group a chance to defend against a larger group. This is working well during Euro time vs Hero BG, but at the same time he can still take keeps when he gets a large BG going on the days Mid BG does not run and is able to capture the relics.
Now here is were I am seeing a problem now, it’s not with the upgraded keeps but with no realm timers. During US prime time there is not much of a Hib BG running, but as soon as you attack a keep with a relic in it you can see a huge population swing were people are switching realms and logging into these keeps defending. You can see a swing of 15% to 25% in the population bonus with in a few minutes of sieging a keep with a relic in it. I know there are roaming groups getting in maybe 2 or 3, but by the time you get in the court yard it is almost even numbers with the defenders with all the advantages.

One of two things need to happen, either realm timers (which I am sure is not an option we will get) Or just like you can’t log out of a keep that is under siege you should not be able to log into a keep under siege.

Please run this up the ladder @Carol_Broadsword because it seems the original intent of the changes are being abused now and the relics are not changing hands because of this exploit with no realm timers has caused.

Comments

  • People still worry about relics? Get some more numbers, and take them. They’re not supposed to be easy to get/take. I like the idea if timers, but who knows if that will even happen. Won’t count on it.
  • I don’t Personally worry about them, but if the BG leader wants to try and take one back than I am fine with that, but what I am not fine with is to try and take it back than people start exploiting the new keep and logging in and switching realms to defend just to farm a good chunk of RP.
    You see that when the siege starts we do have the larger numbers, but that changes quickly with people logging in and switching realms.
  • I remember the second option being brought up before and as I recall, a con to such a mechanic would be it would screw over people that go LD during a keep siege. I would think that would be incredibly frustrating for someone that fell victim to such a mechanic.
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  • I see your point there. But it is very frustrating to see people exploiting the situation. I miss the old days were you had 1 realm per server. It’s a shame the game is so dead it can’t support at least 3 servers or BS won’t reactivate realm timers again.
  • A one hour realm timer that triggers upon earning RPs would go a long way to slow down realm hoppers. Seems to be mostly IRC groups who do this to maximize their RP opportunities. But I suspect many soloers and small mans will switch over to the realm with a BG if their current realm doesn't have one.
  • edited December 2018 PM
    BP's are the new coin of the realm, and relics = more BP <you get a bonus for that>, so it has become profitable to PvE relics again --- an unintended < one would hope> consequence of the current system --- just another thing that hurts rather than helps actual Realm v Realm
    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • It's a double edged sword. Nothing more and nothing less. People complained that they couldn't defend against large BG's. So BS put in harder keeps. Now people switch to defend since it can earn alot of RP's. There is no perfect system. If they put in a realm switch timer it would also have it's drawbacks to it.
  • Xyorman wrote: »
    BP's are the new coin of the realm, and relics = more BP <you get a bonus for that>, so it has become profitable to PvE relics again --- an unintended < one would hope> consequence of the current system --- just another thing that hurts rather than helps actual Realm v Realm

    True, but once again this is something we asked for and this is the unintended consequences of that. No perfect system exists.
  • While realm timer after earning RP would work, I am pretty negative to see that happen. Maybe lowering keep defense on Relic holding keeps should help bring more relic take action, and lower populated realm's to get their relics back.
  • edited December 2018 PM
    Sovereign wrote: »
    I remember the second option being brought up before and as I recall, a con to such a mechanic would be it would screw over people that go LD during a keep siege. I would think that would be incredibly frustrating for someone that fell victim to such a mechanic.

    The LD liability is there, but i think it should be possible to have a timer associated with such an occurrence. LD log ins are typically pretty fast especially if it is during a defense. I think what OP is suggesting is posssible. Maybe create something that would move characters out of a relic keep back into the relic towns after a 30 minute countdown.???

    I'm not totally convinced it would fix the problem. Most realm jumpers/hoppers are in the initial attacking bg and jump to the defending realm to capitalize on defense opportunities.
    Post edited by Sleepwell on
  • Again it’s not about the realms population it’s about the swing of the population to exploit the keep defense when being sieged. Pure and simple a realm timer problem.
  • edited December 2018 PM
    Why is it an ‘exploit’ when you switch realms to assault or defend or just plain ole RVR?

    When you are paying 16-32$ USD a month, what is the issue? Some are content with ‘realm loyalty’ and only seeing 33.3% of the content, but most are not anymore.

    GL
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • I'd be okay with a 30ish minute realm timer as long as it still let you log into housing/main realm areas. You could swap over and check houses/quests/pve raid or whatever but you couldn't port to NF for 30ish minutes.
  • Grot wrote: »
    Again it’s not about the realms population it’s about the swing of the population to exploit the keep defense when being sieged. Pure and simple a realm timer problem.

    I agree. Absolutely a realm timer problem. They are adamantly against such timers. I do wish they would consider some type of timer though. The idea has been tossed around many times that if you have earned RP's on X realm and switch to Y, then you have some sort of count down before you are awarded RP's on the Y realm. If you're truly in it for the fun and defense and not just the rps (yeah right), then it shouldnt be a big deal.
  • It’s a exploit because it changes the the tactics of the siege by being able to make in into a fortified keep with out any risk to get in and also changes the numbers of the defenders to their favor with out any consequences and changes the outcome of the fight instantly.
  • edited December 2018 PM
    RonELuvv wrote: »
    Xyorman wrote: »
    BP's are the new coin of the realm, and relics = more BP <you get a bonus for that>, so it has become profitable to PvE relics again --- an unintended < one would hope> consequence of the current system --- just another thing that hurts rather than helps actual Realm v Realm

    True, but once again this is something we asked for and this is the unintended consequences of that. No perfect system exists.

    Who asked for this?

    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • edited December 2018 PM
    The players did @Xyorman. Do you even read threads on the forums man? People complained in several different threads about how when Herorius, you, or whatever big bg rolls up on keeps that there is no use defending because they just get rolled. In response to this BS made keeps harder to take and added doors on the oil. You truly act clueless some times @Xyorman. Basically, if you don't say it then it didn't happen according to you. /Facepalm
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    The players did @Xyorman. Do you even read threads on the forums man? People complained in several different threads about how when Herorius, you, or whatever big bg rolls up on keeps that there is no use defending because they just get rolled. In response to this BS made keeps harder to take and added doors on the oil. You truly act clueless some times @Xyorman. Basically, if you don't say it then it didn't happen. /Facepalm

    Yes and I never saw a system asked for that took away BP's earned fighting to replace them by BP's, which are capped, earned thru PvE --- which is essentially what you have. Making keeps harder when folks just hop anyway doesn't do anything but slightly delay the inevitable; which btw was pointed out and ignored -- yet, it has come true again.....they said they would improve RvR --- have there been improvements...by my reckoning -- NO...but to each their own.

  • Fateboi wrote: »
    Why is it an ‘exploit’ when you switch realms to assault or defend or just plain ole RVR?

    When you are paying 16-32$ USD a month, what is the issue? Some are content with ‘realm loyalty’ and only seeing 33.3% of the content, but most are not anymore.

    GL

    This is perhaps the single MOST fraudulent argument in game -- yet it persists

  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    The players did @Xyorman. Do you even read threads on the forums man? People complained in several different threads about how when Herorius, you, or whatever big bg rolls up on keeps that there is no use defending because they just get rolled. In response to this BS made keeps harder to take and added doors on the oil. You truly act clueless some times @Xyorman. Basically, if you don't say it then it didn't happen according to you. /Facepalm

    I don't feel like the issue is that keeps can be defended. But people are logging defense toons in a relic keep and leaving them there... then flipping realms when the opportunity allows.

    Just port them back to the relic town
  • Xyorman wrote: »
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Why is it an ‘exploit’ when you switch realms to assault or defend or just plain ole RVR?

    When you are paying 16-32$ USD a month, what is the issue? Some are content with ‘realm loyalty’ and only seeing 33.3% of the content, but most are not anymore.

    GL

    This is perhaps the single MOST fraudulent argument in game -- yet it persists

    We don't have the population to force subscribers to play one realm. However, a realm timer for NF would help prevent players from rapidly switching between realms.
  • Xyorman wrote: »
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Why is it an ‘exploit’ when you switch realms to assault or defend or just plain ole RVR?

    When you are paying 16-32$ USD a month, what is the issue? Some are content with ‘realm loyalty’ and only seeing 33.3% of the content, but most are not anymore.

    GL

    This is perhaps the single MOST fraudulent argument in game -- yet it persists

    We don't have the population to force subscribers to play one realm. However, a realm timer for NF would help prevent players from rapidly switching between realms.

    Several agree. Something as short as 5 mins wouldnt be horrific. Thats enough time for a bathroom break and grabbing a drink :smile:
  • edited December 2018 PM
    Sleepwell wrote: »
    RonELuvv wrote: »
    The players did @Xyorman. Do you even read threads on the forums man? People complained in several different threads about how when Herorius, you, or whatever big bg rolls up on keeps that there is no use defending because they just get rolled. In response to this BS made keeps harder to take and added doors on the oil. You truly act clueless some times @Xyorman. Basically, if you don't say it then it didn't happen according to you. /Facepalm

    I don't feel like the issue is that keeps can be defended. But people are logging defense toons in a relic keep and leaving them there... then flipping realms when the opportunity allows.

    Just port them back to the relic town

    What I'm getting at is that the OP's suggestion that people are realm hopping to defend a keep now because they can earn alot of rp's doing defense. Apparently people decide that defending a relic yields more rp's than taking a relic. Maybe I was wrong on that. So then I said that making keeps easier to defend was asked for by the players in the forums. There are many posts from people that complained that defending a keep was too difficult when normally the BG attacking outnumbers the defenders 5 or more to 1. BS made making a defense easier with lower #'s. Now people are upset that some people log to defend instead of staying with the BG. People will go where the easiest rp's are. If they think they can earn more defending a keep vs taking a keep they will.

    Would realm timers help with that? Absolutely, but mark my words, if you put in realm timers than a big portion of people are also going to be super pissed off about it and complain that they should be able to play whatever realm they want. As I said before. There is no perfect system.
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • edited December 2018 PM
    RonELuvv wrote: »
    Sleepwell wrote: »
    RonELuvv wrote: »
    The players did @Xyorman. Do you even read threads on the forums man? People complained in several different threads about how when Herorius, you, or whatever big bg rolls up on keeps that there is no use defending because they just get rolled. In response to this BS made keeps harder to take and added doors on the oil. You truly act clueless some times @Xyorman. Basically, if you don't say it then it didn't happen according to you. /Facepalm

    I don't feel like the issue is that keeps can be defended. But people are logging defense toons in a relic keep and leaving them there... then flipping realms when the opportunity allows.

    Just port them back to the relic town

    What I'm getting at is that the OP's suggestion that people are realm hopping to defend a keep now because they can earn alot of rp's doing defense. Maybe I was wrong on that. So then I said that making keeps easier to defend was asked for by the players in the forums. There are many posts from people that complained that defending a keep was too difficult when normally the BG attacking outnumbers the defenders 5 or more to 1. BS made making a defense easier with lower #'s. Now people are upset that some people log to defend instead of staying with the BG. People will go where the easiest rp's are. If they think they can earn more defending a keep vs taking a keep they will.

    It is a marginally complex issue which is why just changing door strengths was kind of silly and leads to the consequences we see now....addressing the actual problems with RvR, which I maintain have been the fluidity of the population and relative disparities at specific times, we are left with what we have ---- and are even more compounded with other <BP for example> changes
    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • how about instead of realm timers make it that you don't earn rp (or half rp, whatever) in the 15 mins after swapping realm ? that would stop opportunistic realm swapping but would not prevent people from swapping realm to join a pve BG for instance.
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  • nothing better than having a group in the BG asking for a relic take, then leaving and joining the defending realm.
    realm timers are needed---
  • Everything boils down to population. That is the underlying cause of most of the complaints nowadays. Hopefully this f2p system works and isn’t just a bandaid fix. I’m not all too hopeful it will have much effect, but who knows. Maybe their marketing research tells them otherwise, as I only play this game so not sure what gamers outside DAOC are looking for.
  • edited December 2018 PM
    Used to be realm timers now there isn’t again ‘realm loyalty’ to you is ‘realm restrictions’ to me.

    Now you see the difficulty BS has to juggle.

    GL
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • if u get on at US prime time mids will have no bonus, albs at 25 and hibs at 40. Just as soon as the mid bg hits a relic albs will drop from 25 to 50 plus with in minutes and hib population jumps up to 0. Yeah realm timers 15 min more than enough. your merchants are not going any place, plus there is all types of voice chats people can use to see what realm there guild mates are playing that day. So yeah i do think realm timers are needed cause it can change the out come of a lot of keep fights
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    Used to be realm timers now there isn’t again ‘realm loyalty’ to you is ‘realm restrictions’ to me.

    Now you see the difficulty BS has to juggle.

    GL

    Amen!! Exactly! Everyone posting in this thread for the most part are pro-realm timers. However, if and when that change ever happens, mark my words, there will be thread after thread about how realm timers upset some other subset of players. Just deal with it. People will switch realms, and even if you implement realm timers what stops a person with 2-3 accounts from just switching realms to another account? If you say they need to make it ISP based then what about when multiple people play in the house and one wants to play Mid while another wants to play Hib? This is not a simple thing to fix or adjust w/out upsetting alot of people.
  • Sanford wrote: »
    if u get on at US prime time mids will have no bonus, albs at 25 and hibs at 40. Just as soon as the mid bg hits a relic albs will drop from 25 to 50 plus with in minutes and hib population jumps up to 0. Yeah realm timers 15 min more than enough. your merchants are not going any place, plus there is all types of voice chats people can use to see what realm there guild mates are playing that day. So yeah i do think realm timers are needed cause it can change the out come of a lot of keep fights

    Again, what stops players w/ multiple accounts from still switching?
  • I would like to see a realm timer of some sorts. Even 30 minutes would help and i dont think that is too much to ask.
  • The new, stronger keeps are fine with the only addition I would make is doors on the upper INNER oils and as for this relic debate I would suggest putting them back into the temples where they belong. Make the job of recapturing them as difficult as it was grabbing them in the first place.
    Someone wants to log out of Mid or Alb to defend a relic in Hib doesn't bother me in the least.
    Realm timers? tch tch
    Exploits? Pfft
    Folks with multiple accounts logging into one realm one one acct. and another realm with the other, etc., wouldn't be affected now, would they?
  • Xyorman wrote: »
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Why is it an ‘exploit’ when you switch realms to assault or defend or just plain ole RVR?

    When you are paying 16-32$ USD a month, what is the issue? Some are content with ‘realm loyalty’ and only seeing 33.3% of the content, but most are not anymore.

    GL

    This is perhaps the single MOST fraudulent argument in game -- yet it persists

    We don't have the population to force subscribers to play one realm. However, a realm timer for NF would help prevent players from rapidly switching between realms.

    And you don`t get players back with the current system, ppl are upset about this population swings, you`ll notive that very soon.
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Used to be realm timers now there isn’t again ‘realm loyalty’ to you is ‘realm restrictions’ to me.

    Now you see the difficulty BS has to juggle.

    GL

    Amen!! Exactly! Everyone posting in this thread for the most part are pro-realm timers. However, if and when that change ever happens, mark my words, there will be thread after thread about how realm timers upset some other subset of players. Just deal with it. People will switch realms, and even if you implement realm timers what stops a person with 2-3 accounts from just switching realms to another account? If you say they need to make it ISP based then what about when multiple people play in the house and one wants to play Mid while another wants to play Hib? This is not a simple thing to fix or adjust w/out upsetting alot of people.

    Nonsense


  • Possibly there is still to much information avaliable to everyone sitting in the relic towns waiting to insta port and/or swap realms to defend on a siege.

    a) everyone can see a siege and switch on a dime (make it like cups/trees/hammers - so that only 2 realms can see)

    b) reduce (quantity) of insta porting and put a (timer) on group port
    - reduced quantity = more predictable routes
    - timer on group port = groups can't respond on a dime to defend, or port back and swap realms.

    Lets not forget only a few years ago (prior to cups/hammers/trees returning to teh game), Zergs were crystal titaning guards and were well into the siege before any notification.
  • Hib bonus went from 25% to 10 % that time.. Nice try, Middies.
  • edited December 2018 PM
    Cartoan wrote: »
    Hib bonus went from 25% to 10 % that time.. Nice try, Middies.

    It's the problem of the game; the fact that they were taken when no one is on to defend and Bonuses in Alb/Mid were in the 70's, it's pathetic to watch % switch in a legit retake.

    As to Tald's points -- porting isn't the issue and would hurt the legitimate defenders, though your (a) point I understand, I am not sure it makes a difference

    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • Yea I was in Scath and seen 3 groups worth log in and out after keep was saved lol.
  • So, for how many years are we going to flog the same dead horse?
  • Perhaps until it is actually addressed....
  • Badnagen wrote: »
    So, for how many years are we going to flog the same dead horse?

    Well if variable X can't change, maybe we can discuss variables, A B C to find a middle point to see what works for both sides.



  • edited December 2018 PM
    meh
    Post edited by Anomally on
  • Maybe you should just go for the keep take instead of running around and cutting every port first allowing us to gather our forces to defend.
  • There used to be three way zergs hitting each other with 80+. Now your whining about actual paying customers swapping to give you a fight.

    I can’t even...
  • edited December 2018 PM
    Creaper wrote: »
    Maybe you should just go for the keep take instead of running around and cutting every port first allowing us to gather our forces to defend.

    While this is a valid point, it doesn't address an army logging into the relic keep from switching realms.

    Perhaps some kind of mechanic can be introduced where players switching realms can not earn RP bonuses for 30 minutes to an hour after having earned 1 realm point in the prior realm. They are free to earn RPS normally through actions such as killing, healing, rezzing, etc. but RP bonuses are in effect on a cool down of sorts. This might reduce instances of realm switching if players know they aren't going to benefit from bonuses for a short period of time.
    Post edited by Sovereign on
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  • Fateboi wrote: »
    There used to be three way zergs hitting each other with 80+. Now your whining about actual paying customers swapping to give you a fight.

    I can’t even...

    Hrmm, gotta work on that comprehension.....

  • Fateboi wrote: »
    There used to be three way zergs hitting each other with 80+. Now your whining about actual paying customers swapping to give you a fight.

    I can’t even...

    Because the swaping, paying customers make it a two way zerg, your logic is selftrumpish....
  • Please keep it civil.

    Thank you.
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  • I would be for a small timer like 5 min or something. but when you only have a couple hours a night to play, you want to get the more RPs as possible.
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