Population update

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Comments

  • edited April 2018 PM
    Simon:
    So you represent that Mid and Hibb are equally zergy -- whatever that actually means, though we can assume it means they have a higher instance of killing more with more characters vs less characters even though the 'realm' is represented by actual people who play all 3 realms --- and while it is of no use for decision making or drawing conclusions, as you say above, its is legitimate -- ok, legitimate for what? Looking at? A thing of curiosity? We know it breaks down in the micro, we know it has flaws, so what does it exactly claim to represent -- that this particular week, the actual humans that played these particular realms tended to win more fights and, apparently, did so with more numbers vs less, even though we cant be sure of by how much since, even if 32 kill 8, not all will necessarily get kill credit < due to range etc> though deathblows are, in fact, deathblows? You say this represents 'zerginess', which is what again? I see no value in labeling a realm with a word that is, defacto, derogatory for any reason.
    A 4 man running over a solo is a zerg, 100 running over solo is a zerg --- yet they are hardly the same thing. Running an 8 man at 3 AM EDT can be considered zerging by the population at the time...but is it? I submit zerginess is in the eye of the beholder. In summation, I don't think your stat is representative of a realm, is there really a realm anymore <that is a hell of a discussion> just considering the fluidity of the playerbase. And analysis and insight is a great thing -- your analysis and insight sees value in this stat, I don't it the same way--- and I would simply say my understanding of the actual value of statistical analysis is much greater than you would ever believe.

    To Sovereign: I didn't say the decision makers did. 2.) The fact that you haven't seen any of my suggestions only means you are not a decision maker. I by no means have the corner on good ideas and never claimed to.... What I have said, multiple times in multiple forums, if the DEVS truly want good input form we who play the game, it would be MOST beneficial to do so in a structured way with boundaries of the possible....while there certainly is value to brainstorming, wasting time advocating for things that are not feasible, for whatever reason, is counterproductive. AS an example, in a recent voice meeting we <a few leaders from the different realms and a few BS folk> discussed changing a certain event a specific way, and while possible, the amount of resources needed to do something that ultimately was nice ,was overcome by the desire not to waste resources on a nice to have ---- having parameters like that can help focus the brainstorming. What is willing to be done to fix RvR is a better question -- I don't know what they can or are willing to do -- If you want RvR you have to make realm important, we may be past the tipping point, we shall see.
    Post edited by Xyorman on
  • Sovereign wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    Xyorman - statistics are my day job. I never claimed to know anything about you - I'm basing my comments on your knowledge of stats on the comments you're making in this thread - which show little understanding of how statistics work.

    You've tried to suggest it's a sampling error and if you know stats you'll know there is zero sampling error because the sample here is the population.

    Statistical error has to based on a legitimate reason and you haven't given one. Validity isn't an issue because these are hard figures and I'm not trying to draw conclusions.

    There is no comparison group and this is not an experimental analysis so it's hard to prove any sort of causation or reason for the figures. The best we can do is realm versus realm comparisons and then our own analysis based on our insight.

    But that doesn't make the figures any less legitimate. They are descriptive statistics which means they represent exactly what they claim to represent.

    There's really no point in conversing with the man; he has an agenda and isn't interested in any explanation that doesn't backup up that agenda. The interpretation of the data is a perfectly valid topic to discuss however he's attacking the data itself, something that makes no sense given that you clearly state it's the data as a whole. I see what he's trying to do he's just going about it the completely wrong way where it reveals the how blatant it is.

    Talk about the Pot from the kettle is hilarious
  • sometimes when you are wrong, just accept it, admit it and walk away. this isn't even a debate or finger pointing.

    its merely current data set compared against historic data set and also represented in easy to read informative way.
  • tald wrote: »
    sometimes when you are wrong, just accept it, admit it and walk away. this isn't even a debate or finger pointing.

    its merely current data set compared against historic data set and also represented in easy to read informative way.

    A graphical representation of data with no significance -- which is and has been, my point from the beginning

  • I agree with you sovereign there definetly is an agenda here that has been going on for a long time concerning alb.
    The agenda as is allways in mmorpg games is to make sure your realm stays top of the food chain and not discuss other realms shortcomings.
    I think sym eloquently summed it up when he said that alb is the land of glass cannon casters and to be honest with him I totally agree.
    Unfortunetly alb has historically been a realm that dosent complain so consequently has been tarred with the overpopulated no skill zerger realm.
    Now figures statistics and people’s experiences are coming to the fore in a forum where people can actually express what is going on in the game with out the vitriol of the post count days.
    And it seems the old expression sir you doth protest too much comes to mind when hearing xyromans views.
    Once again I will say from the figures that the main realm for casual players and Zerg players seems to be mid and closely followed by hib.
    Albion from the figures and brilliantly collected statistics seems to be way behind.
  • Brut wrote: »
    I agree with you sovereign there definetly is an agenda here that has been going on for a long time concerning alb.
    The agenda as is allways in mmorpg games is to make sure your realm stays top of the food chain and not discuss other realms shortcomings.
    I think sym eloquently summed it up when he said that alb is the land of glass cannon casters and to be honest with him I totally agree.
    Unfortunetly alb has historically been a realm that dosent complain so consequently has been tarred with the overpopulated no skill zerger realm.
    Now figures statistics and people’s experiences are coming to the fore in a forum where people can actually express what is going on in the game with out the vitriol of the post count days.
    And it seems the old expression sir you doth protest too much comes to mind when hearing xyromans views.
    Once again I will say from the figures that the main realm for casual players and Zerg players seems to be mid and closely followed by hib.
    Albion from the figures and brilliantly collected statistics seems to be way behind.
    I've been back about 3 months and yes it seems albs are sparce but by no way are their group set-ups inferior. You should watch Rhildor/ tank boys(he he) stream when they are playing their albs. Yes Mids and Hibs learning curve maybe easier but Albs still have the power to compete with the other realms.
  • Xyorman wrote: »
    Simon:
    --- and I would simply say my understanding of the actual value of statistical analysis is much greater than you would ever believe.

    So stop ranting and use your vast understanding to do it better....
  • Brut wrote: »
    I think sym eloquently summed it up when he said that alb is the land of glass cannon casters and to be honest with him I totally agree.

    comming from the realm that has paladins and armsmen, arguably the most durable tanks in the game... (cough, today vamps and maulers might be the most durable tanks, but that's another issue..sigh)

    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • There are many more players that "mainly" play Albion and Midgard compared to Hibernia. One doesn't need to look at a chart to know this. I don't refer to the BG's, since for example Heror's is comprised of many players who "main" Albion or Midgard the rest of the time. There are less "main Hibernia only" players compared to the other realms. Especially during US prime time. The question is why?

    Some posters seem to think Alb has less utility than the other realms? Not quite...More to the point is that there is a "set" group or two that are basically an insta win for any Alb 8 man due to how ridiculously- yes ridiculously overpowered/easy mode those Albion's abilities are, especially together. ( Try to argue that point, but the reality is if you see an alb group, there is a 98% chance it is one of 2 group set ups) That makes it seem that there are less options, when in reality, options exist, they simply require more effort and skill to pull off since they don't have the furthest delve range, or the largest number of pets that don't suffer combat speed, cant be interrupted, cast every second without immunity and can run at speeds of speed 600 and drop people from SOS, and which require the opposing group to spend the majority of their time countering, thus allowing the Albion group to essentially free cast for the majority of the fight without any comparable abilities or pets to have to counter. Midgard has more for an enemy to have to counter and less to have to counter (when fighting Hibernia at least) but with more group variety as they have the most utility between individual classes.

    There is a reason why 95% of the time Mids or Albs will attack a Hib group before they do each other. If Albs and Hibs are engaged, and a mid group rolls up, 95% of the time they hit the Hibs, the same is true for the Albs if they come across a Hib/Mid fight. I see it time and again. Hibernia will have a 60% pop bonus. Where are the Alb and Mid BG's? In Hibernia... I realize Heror often attacks the lower pop realm as well, but it is not his MO.

    Take an objective look at Healers, Clerics and Druids. What do they all have in their bag of tricks when a 3+ tank train is on them. The Druids have the more difficult job in that regard. No stun or mezz or R5 CC, or phase shift, etc.
    Just take an objective look at the patches over the years. Almost always a nerf to Hibernia and a boost to the other 2- and if Hibernia ever gets a boost, its generally quickly nerfed, and then that same ability/effect is given to Midgard or Albion in a later patch, and is sometimes even stronger. For example, the Bain pulse. I guess it made more sense to nerf that damage and make them stand still to use it while giving it to a melee class who can use it while moving.

    Just look at the last patch- see what minstrels and skalds got, then look at bards. While Hibernian groups do not "need" a bard to run, it is a huge handicap to not have one. Guess which is the least played toon on Hib- Bingo- Bards.

    It's time to address the big pink elephant that Hibernia needs just a little love in their delves, specialty lines and RA's.
    I mean how many Hib RA's are basically a "weak" counter to what an enemy class has in their specialty line. The Warden R5 for example- wow he gets to scare pets once. within 4 seconds more are cast and the group is back to square one and his R5 has really had little effect. Sure, Bainshee ES spec has some spec-line counters, but again we don't see many Bainshee's let alone many that play ES.

    As to "Albs just don't speak up enough" WOW! Amazing opinion. The current game set up is a direct result of Albion and Midgard having the most players who mostly play those respective realms, therefore they are the ones sending in the majority of the feedback. that's just logic.

    Sorcerer's do not need Sojourner or Convoker, (Definatley no shortage of speedwarps coming out the rear end of Alb groups) Paladins do not need ST, (Lord knows they already have a ton of very useful utility as of late, and almost all of it is cast-able while moving AND on a 20 minute timer) While it may be true that Albion, like Hibernia does not get to make use of ST nearly as much as Midgard due to group make-up, I'm not sure Paladins would be the solution. I mean Midgard tends to have the ST to drop more often than Albion or Hibernia- interestingly enough they also have AE stuns that apparently can stun an entire floor without line of sight. In a group or BG setting, One person with an instant AE stun and a cast-able single and Ae stun is > five people who only have a cast-able stun, especially since the Midgard healer stun has a longer duration to all.
    Hibernian tank groups are doing well currently. But so are Albion's and Midgard's for different reasons. Just look at what the Necro is able to do in the back field, or compare a zerk/savage damage to other charge tanks.

    Also objectively compare a Paladin to a melee Warden. Comparing a Paladin to a Champion is like apples and oranges. Champions do not have heals. Oh wait, Albion also has a Friar...which are also compared to Wardens a lot. So a Paladin gets to cast his celerity once every 20 minutes <while running if need be, consider trying to be a melee warden. Oh wait. he would have to be mostly trained in regrowth to have it and will have to stop and cast every 15-20 seconds.

    The last point I'll make here are the number of ranged instant interrupts that Albion and Midgard melee get compared to Hibernia. How many instant interrupts do the actual masters of magic, the pure casters get? None. Over the years much has been given to melee to make them more enticing and to make them less at the mercy of casters. That's great. However, it's gone overboard now. With all the CC reduction, pile up of crescendos (available on Mid and Alb only apparently) free charges, and instant interrupts. What has been given to pure non pet caster classes to compensate? Nothing. For example, why does a Mana Eldritch (and similar classes) still suffer a lower damage delve on their snare/nuke spell when the snare part of the spell is essentially in-effective for 80% of the targets?

    I know balance is difficult to achieve while maintaining realm identity and flavor (which I love) but my god some of the stuff that's happening now is just so obviously broken. Now if you want to change the game info and realm descriptions to read as follows, then at least it would make sense:

    Midgard- Easy Mode Game Setting (Wide variety of group set up)
    Albion- Moderate Difficulty Game Setting (Unless you make one of two group set ups)
    Hibernia- Challenge Mode- (Not for the feint of heart.)

  • somebodys a hib
  • somebodys a hib

    "Spleens! I want spleens!"
  • I respect your opinion luna but I beg to differ.
    My point was and allways has been that setting up a group on mid or hib is far easier than alb as you have already admitted you see only ever 2 types of group on alb and as you have also stated these types of groups on alb take more skill to function the successful ones I might add.
    Let me explain my experience of playing hib and mid and setting up a group and maybe you can see where I’m coming from.
    On hib your basic starting point for any group is bard Druid warden then basically fill with whatever toons you want.
    On mid it’s Aug pac shaman again fill with whatever you want.
    On alb if you want to compete it’s cleric friar mini or sorc and theurg.
    As you can see from the off your restricted by what classes you can play.
    On mid or hib all 3 of your base classes can heal and cc and interupt apart from warden on hib but that is compensated with pbt and bg.
    On alb 2 can heal 2 can interupt and cc one is pure interupt.
    This is where I’m coming from on the utility hence it’s harder to make a competive group especially if your pugging because you are allways having to compromise the 3 basic functions cc healing and interupts.
    I have played all three realms and find hib and mid far easier to play and the pop figures seem to bear this out especially for the casual player.
    Hibernia ranged interupts are very good on a bard you get insta aoe mez insta amnesia aoe a dd a root.
    Then on Druid insta and cast roots a pet and a single target dot
    Hib melee are very good at interrupting stick 2 vamps in a group you got 2 badass pets that are can interupt and remove I’ll effects from vamp when released rather like a free purge this on top of free charge 5 is pretty good plus a dem vamp with single target mez and the range bolt power leak.
    Then you have champ with dd shouts and insta shears plus really powerful rr5 and st plus a snare makes for a pretty good interrupting melee.
    Then you have vw with aoe disease and a life tap and I believe a root again pretty good interupts.
    Then you have bm with charge 5 banelord and tripple wield .
    Compare that to alb
    Paladin one single target interupt
    Mercenary banelord
    Reaver good interupts but no free charge 5 the only toon out of all 3 realms not to have one.
    Armsman get snapshot but u have to spec it .
    So all in all looking at melee interupts I think hib does pretty good now couple all that melee power with a chanter with a pet and the chanter melee buff and you have a pretty devastating tank group.
    Druid 2 vamps a chanter that’s a total of 4 pets throw in a mentalist that’s 5 pets unlike the theurg they don’t have to be cast I’d say that’s a pretty good set of interupts wouldn’t you.
    Now your gonna say well yes but vamps need power to get the pet up.
    And I’ll agree on that but most vamps melee the dummy’s in the starter towns and have there pets up already for 5 minutes and then just melee pve stuff to get them up again.
    So yeh I don’t agree with you but hey this forums about opinions and at this moment in time this is my view of the state of the realms.
  • edited May 2018 PM
    I see a lot of discussion and in my opinion, I see one main thing that is being brought to light and said: 1) People who believe in Realm loyalty and the passion of trying to preserve it. They are trying to bring to light problems/concern for their realm of choice. They want an actual data to reflect that and not data that happens to be the only ones that is available. 2) People who don't have realm loyalty and just play the game and feel they need to switch often to create action, in their opinion. I feel has little regards of improving a realm problem. Not saying Simon is wrong with the data and doesn't know how to, it is the only data he has to work with I am saying. Is there away of looking making data available by server throughout the day instead?
    Post edited by TiaSkip on
  • Brut wrote: »
    vamp when released rather like a free purge this on top of free charge 5 is pretty good plus a dem vamp with single target mez and the range bolt power leak

    Reaver good interupts but no free charge 5 the only toon out of all 3 realms not to have one.

    vamps or valks don't get "free" charge.



  • Your points are also valid. And I might add I've really enjoyed many of our fights in the frontier. :)
    I think we were referring to utility in different contexts.

    I agree it is probably easier to "form" a group on Hib in that context, even though there are many times no bards, especially after the last patch in which bards got shafted compared to Min/Skald.
    But population wise- I hear many returning players say they prefer mid/alb since there are more groups going & it is normally easier to get in a group. I'm not saying this is accurate. I just hear it a lot.

    The point I was making was that some realms have class/group combos that are a bit unbalanced, and often the population will reflect that.
    I'll focus on just the theurg/sorc group you mentioned.
    Within just the the 1 Alb common group set up is a ton of utility. And I have occasionally seen Alb groups that aren't running that set up put up a damn good fight, sometimes winning , sometimes losing50/50 chance.
    ( Brut, I think you run a melee group usually? So props for that)
    Sorc/theurg groups have more like an 85% success rate. Many times if we do beat a non theurg group once- the next run they changed to include one. If we do beat a theurg/sorc group, they come back with 2 groups or 2 theurgists in group.

    I mean I'm sure Albion realizes that by having the Sorc/Theurg combo you are basically competing in a foot race while being able to use a motorcycle. It forces any enemy group to spend 80% of their uptime dealing with the Theurg pets alone. What 1 guy out of 8 creates. This allows the other albs to do their offensive/heal work with relative ease, while not having to deal with much else, as the enemy is clearing, peeling, stunning, rooting pets, or just interrupted, which are all passive AI.
    The enemy has to mash 3 buttons for every 1 button the alb mashes, many of which can only be used once.

    It's basically pve'ing for RP. (kind of like when a squadron of enemy guards aggros a group near a keep while they are attacking an enemy group. Those extra few npc's hitting heals, interrupting casters. CC must be applied, or they must be killed quickly, but during that time, the enemy group has the advantage of being able to go almost 100% offensive. The difference between that and a Theurg is the enemy group doesn't have 1 guy standing out of cast range spitting the guards out:
    The guards don't hit every 1-2 sec.
    They don't run at super speed
    The guards can be cc'ed- yes the therug pets die pretty fast. but they are cast quickly too.
    The guards don't drop you from SOS, or Eld RR5
    The guards don't cc you every 1-2 seconds w/out immunity

    So within the first 5 seconds of a fight, a Theurg has locked down an entire group, in combination with the Sorc, and they do so before anything can be done except 1 single target insta by the bard. Even if they are nearsighted on inc. .5 second cast to clear it, then they have immunity.
    Both have cast range of 2k+
    What do the alb dps have to do in a situation like that that keeps them from actually hitting a player target?

    When you listed the classes and their abilities- again 1 theurgist can lock them all down.
    The bard, for example, is good at interrupting, and has a lot of utility, however. lets look at it in a group context.

    Hibs vs albs fight:
    bard, druid, ward, eld, 2bm, hero, ani
    min, therg, sorc, cab, necro, reaver, cleric, friar

    Both groups get within range
    First 10 sec
    Bard gets insta mezz off on the sorc. Sorc purges and quickcasts/or mocs ae mezz- 3-5 hibs mezzed/interrupted from bolt range.
    Theurgist is already spitting pets/hibs purge or get demezzed, but not likely since the bard is being lit up by the assist train, 80% chance he's gonna drop, since the druid and ward are already petted. Eld is trying to clear pets <only if he doesn't have one on him, if he does he has to use a quickcast (which we know is a slooow cast) to clear the first. 3 tanks head for casters. cab pet is most likely on a heal or caster.

    ( If the bard sos'es the theurg pets will drop their target out of sos, the theurg pet also runs faster than and drops the eldritch RR5 right off them as well)
    I'm not sure if that's a bug or intended but that's total BS imo and needs to be addressed.
    15 sec in
    If bard dies, he gets pr'ed, and out of the count a few moments. 1-2 tanks gets on theurgist he rr5's. his friar & cleric have had nothing to have to deal w/ yet, so they keep him up freecasting, maybe there is 1 druid pet on one... maybe the theurg actually gets dropped...
    necro is in backfield, cant be cc'ed, insta interrupts from 1000 units away, oh look a ani caster just dropped to the assist train while dealing w/ pets.
    Theurg is pr'ed and already spitting pets (who do not suffer the rezz ill penalty)
    Necro is on a heal, theurg pets on the ward.... reaver on the ani who was just rezzed. He was rooted but it faded in 8 seconds and he's back on the ani.

    BM's are RR5 stunned from cleric
    Eld gets on a cleric, who is now diseased, snared, str/con debuffed, and the cleric gets to run out of range ignoring combat speed snare, disease and debuff. Yay insta cast crescendo for albs!
    (and some groups that clearly alter their script to allow them to ignore combat speed- yes I see it time and again) And then the necro is back on the eld, the reaver continues to harass the warden, the druid has 5 pets on him again, the eld cant clear, the min has been harassing the ani almost the whole time....
    now that the healers, therg and sorc have pulled back/kited, the hibs.. oh wait. We are mezzed again with no immunity timer from bolt range, now the druid is killed..
    Need I go on?

    I know fights are more dynamic and attempting to script a fight is cumbersome. But this is generally how most fights vs that set up goes, many other factors including terrain, and if one group got the drop, and if RA's are even up.../etc.
    Most of the hib RA's have been blown within the first few moments just to compensate for baseline abilities, and have little effect. The hibs have to be 100% on point with no room for error. The same cannot be said for the Albs, who have more leeway since pets are doing so much interference.

    I will clarify that I hold an extreme bias against pets in any pvp/rvr situation. I never understood why anyone felt that having A.I./passive code pets in pvp was a good idea. But sadly I am alone in that opinion. Pets are here, I must deal. But they need to be kept in check.

    So at the least, I try to offer feedback that will help such things to be better balanced. I've played since release, the Theurgist is and always has been broken. I was watching an Alb stream this morning and every 5-10 seconds or so I kept hearing "Everything is petted". Which takes as much skill to accomplish as near sighting but to much greater effect due to the nature of the theurgist pets.

    While I mostly play/love Hibernia, despite it being generally the most underpopulated overall (not including the zerg times and the bouncers), having smaller delves, less insta/interupts, less "roaming" pets, and no cheese set up. But most players gravitate towards what's easier- thus the lower general population on Hib.
    I do visit the other realms from time to time. It is good to know one's enemy. I would not want to see Hibernia as the OP realm either. I seek balance.

    When I mentioned the tanks with interrupts I was referring to instant cast. Doesn't the necro tank form also have an insta ranged interrupt? That's 5 tanks with an instant interrupt.
    You mentioned charge.
    Necros don't get charge, but they sure don't get rooted either somehow.
    Also a Valk still has to train charge just like reaver and Vamp I believe. Unless my information is wrong.
    Alb has 1 free charge & 1 trainable charge class: Merc, Reaver
    Mid has 2 free charge & 1 trainable charge class: Savage, Berserker, Valk
    Hib has 1 free charge & 1 trainable charge class: Blademaster, Vampiir

    I also agree that the hib tank group is doing well.
    As I have been wordy enough, I won't go into much more.

    I am glad we have this forum as well. All role play hatred of enemy aside- we realms need each other or we don't have a game. I enjoy the competitive aspect. I enjoy the realm diversity/variety. I want Albs, Mids and Hibs to ALL love this game, have a healthy core population and have options for group set up.
    So to the original post topic, I think realm balance is currently in need of balancing. Certain classes/class combos and class item/uses are a big factor in that.


  • LunaVey wrote: »
    So to the original post topic, I think realm balance is currently in need of balancing. Certain classes/class combos and class item/uses are a big factor in that.

    you mentioned realm balance, but you actually mean class balance? - Since you put this into a 8v8 / group vs group context. Can you be a bit more specific on what you feel needs balancing.

  • Tald,
    Yes, one shouldn't post before finishing first cup of coffee.
    It was related to population in so far as class/group set up on some realms are more attractive/effective in 8 mans, and thus effect population.

    Utility per class/group per realm was another factor discussed.

    Both are closely related.

    Utility on paper vs what it amounts to in game situations differs. Which is where I hope these forums will prove useful if we all try to be objective.

    To be specific and vague so as not to make it a class/realm rant.
    RR5
    some class RR5-performing beautifully- useful in nearly every fight negated by almost nothing.
    some class RR5-lackluster- can be used in each fight- but to little effect- often negated by multiple other factors.

    Classes-
    Changes have been made to some classes/abilities over the years- that's fine and good.
    Some classes/abilities haven't changed at all and have become lackluster/less effective due to other changes.
    Some classes have been too strong for too long, others too weak.

    Realm-
    X= the same ability
    Some realms that had no issue dealing w/ <X> are given even more to counter it
    Some realms struggle with <X> and get nothing to counter it, and have their <X> negated by other realms that never had a problem dealing with <x> in the first place.

    X= the same ability
    Some realms that already have a lot of X which is really useful- get more
    Some realms that have a lack of X, see their enemies who already had a bunch of X, get more.

    to give an actual in game example to help clarify, and this is in no way an anti-mid statement.

    It would be like adding another free charge class to Mid, and none to Alb or Hib, and no new charge countering abilities for either as well;Or adding a charge countering ability to Alb, but not to Hib/vice verse.

    This affects where new players start, and how veteran and returning players spend most of their time.

  • @LunaVey do you think a new player would have teh knowledge of all of this, thus making it a deciding factor of where they start?

    very diplomatic on teh rest, and i totally agree on some parts of it, but not all.
  • As to the new players, most likely not. But if they are referred by a friend who points them to excidio or the like, they have the "on paper" experience. If they use the daoc website- well that information is woefully out of date.
    And thanks, which were some of the bones of contention?
  • Only new games attract new players and they're all using Steam. This game is for we veterans of the game.
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