Removal of Stealth Lore

With the increase of groups running Scouts, Rangers and Hunters in groups and battle groups when can we expect the removal of Stealth Lore from some OP classes/Artifacts? If it doesn't stealth it shouldn't see stealth plain and simple. The only classes that should see stealth is another stealth class or by a PNode. Assassin classes have been nerfed into the ground as it is. We should have the ability to pick and choose our battles undetected unless jumped by another stealth player or if we are dumb enough to walk through a PNode.
  1. How often do you find stealth classes running as a Necro/Vamp or a Stealth Lore Charge?18 votes
    1. Always
        5.56%
    2. Sometimes
      50.00%
    3. Never
      38.89%
    4. I know the real truth and rather not disclose said information because it may result in a nerf!
        5.56%
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Comments

  • When I played on my necro, the stealth detection function was a love/hate scenario. I never found the stealth detection on the spirit form to be that stellar or revealing plus while in the spirit form the necro has very little AF so often times I was able to see an assassin right as they PA'd me for devastating damage. The only times I found stealthlore useful as a necro was when finding archers because while stealthed they simply weren't as fast as assassins which was deliberate imo.
  • Every Vizzy template I make has 2-3 SL’s just to gank stealth. Well you know, cause they have been ganking since day one. SL is fine as it is now.

    You have to make a template with SL or carry crap pots that dont work for half the amount of a charge. So you sacrifice enough to find stealth w/template. No need for a nerf to vizzys access to said charge.
  • Stealth Lore can be removed when Stealth is removed. Otherwise, it's working as intended.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
  • edited November 2018 PM
    I only mention it because with groups running stealth classes they get an additional buff that allows them to see stealth as well. If you want to hunt down stealth run one of those classes in your group. That class was given an ability to find stealth make the sacrifice and group them. Once again if you are visible you have no business seeing stealth. This will open the opportunity for assassin/ranged classes with high stealth training to get groups that normally wouldn't be grouped. They get a stealth lore buff put it to use.
    Post edited by Vanzblade on
  • Sovereign wrote: »
    When I played on my necro, the stealth detection function was a love/hate scenario. I never found the stealth detection on the spirit form to be that stellar or revealing plus while in the spirit form the necro has very little AF so often times I was able to see an assassin right as they PA'd me for devastating damage. The only times I found stealthlore useful as a necro was when finding archers because while stealthed they simply weren't as fast as assassins which was deliberate imo.

    Fair enough thanks for an honest answer. I have found in my travels that Alb groups running the melee form finds me more often than the spirit form. Which shouldn't be the case. If your in melee form once again you shouldn't see me as well as long as your not right on top of me. So I don't know if there is a coding issue which is why I started this poll.
  • "Assassin classes have been nerfed into the ground as it is."
    You lost me there.
  • Stealthy is one thing; invisible is another. Ruins the game. Invisible? Really? Talk about magical abilities!
  • Gavner wrote: »
    "Assassin classes have been nerfed into the ground as it is."
    You lost me there.

    Look at the patch notes and tell me what class has been there the most.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Cartoan wrote: »
    Stealthy is one thing; invisible is another. Ruins the game. Invisible? Really? Talk about magical abilities!

    How does it ruin the game?
    Do you play an assassin class? Are you always on the receiving end of a perf?
    Post edited by Vanzblade on
  • Cartoan wrote: »
    Stealthy is one thing; invisible is another. Ruins the game. Invisible? Really? Talk about magical abilities!

    I only agree with this if there is more then a duo/trio. Past that then it does, in a way ruin the game.
  • I see the running of SL and stealth classes in visi groups as a way to detect the stealth zergs as another change in tactics. I have ran with the Hib stealth zerg for many months and am not gonna cry about it.
  • Keltorius wrote: »
    I see the running of SL and stealth classes in visi groups as a way to detect the stealth zergs as another change in tactics. I have ran with the Hib stealth zerg for many months and am not gonna cry about it.

    Not crying about it just bringing the subject up for an honest discussion. As you say the game is changing.
  • Still not very many stealth classes, even running in the zergs. I really only know of one that runs consistently in mid, and that’s Bersyka a hunter. Other than that it’s a fairly uncommon thing, at least in my experience.
  • Vanzblade wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    "Assassin classes have been nerfed into the ground as it is."
    You lost me there.

    Look at the patch notes and tell me what class has been there the most.

    Like here?
    https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/1121-live-patch-notes
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Gavner wrote: »
    Vanzblade wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    "Assassin classes have been nerfed into the ground as it is."
    You lost me there.

    Look at the patch notes and tell me what class has been there the most.

    Like here?
    https://darkageofcamelot.com/content/1121-live-patch-notes

    Precisely. This patch was the patch that they added the additional stealth lore ability to the stealth classes so when grouped with visible characters the visible characters also gain additional stealth lore ability. This I am cool with because the stealth classes got the ability in the hopes that visible groups would group them more so they could uncover any stealthed toons in the area.

    Also in this patch Assassin classes were nerfed via the Viper line and had damage reduced to next to nothing so it is pointless to spec in Viper anymore and this upcoming patch all the poisons that were introduced in the patch you mentioned gets nerfed as well. So it may not be worth specializing into poison line anymore or minimal spec just to get the lowest mez poison, because the damage/reduction of damage just isn't there.
    Post edited by Vanzblade on
  • Stealth Lore can be removed when Stealth is removed. Otherwise, it's working as intended.

  • edited November 2018 PM
    Rulother wrote: »
    Stealth Lore can be removed when Stealth is removed. Otherwise, it's working as intended.

    Run more Rangers, Scouts and Hunters.
    Post edited by Vanzblade on
  • Gavner wrote: »
    "Assassin classes have been nerfed into the ground as it is."
    You lost me there.

    Patch notes don't lie..
  • Sure np, I am perfectly fine reverting Assassin changes before 1.121 if thats what you want. You got my back, get those old poisons, lower back some CS dmg, remove teleport etc. I mean I can live with that.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Sure np, I am perfectly fine reverting Assassin changes before 1.121 if thats what you want. You got my back, get those old poisons, lower back some CS dmg, remove teleport etc. I mean I can live with that.

    Totally at least we knew where we stood. You switch your weapons out constantly. I had 1 bag dedicated to switching. I just read the 1.125A Patch Notes and they are giving us Viper back but they still nerfed the baseline so you are wasting rps to bring Viper up get back to the same dmg you had for this patch. Makes no sense.
  • Is it really a nerf if they slowly undo patches of love?
  • Wait, didn't you say it was a nerf?
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Is it really a nerf if they slowly undo patches of love?

    Sounds like a song doesn't it.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Wait, didn't you say it was a nerf?

    They nerfed Viper in 1.121 and now in patch 1.125A they appear to be bringing Viper back but the changes in 1.125 still reduce the base poision dmg from the baseline. Or at least that's how it appears to me.
  • As said, im fine, revert everything back as was if thats what you wish.
  • Heading to Pendragon to see for myself.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    As said, im fine, revert everything back as was if thats what you wish.

    They have crossed that bridge and blew it up. There ain't no going back now. Sadly.
  • Gavner wrote: »
    Sure np, I am perfectly fine reverting Assassin changes before 1.121 if thats what you want. You got my back, get those old poisons, lower back some CS dmg, remove teleport etc. I mean I can live with that.

    CS dmg was higher then and old poisons hit harder
  • SL usually helps on my savage right before I run into 16 rangers or scouts.
  • I´d like to have the ranger back as it was around 2006-08, but it´s too late to turn the wheel back, mhm? But wait, i`ve heared some rumors.....
  • Vanzblade wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    As said, im fine, revert everything back as was if thats what you wish.

    They have crossed that bridge and blew it up. There ain't no going back now. Sadly.

    This, and everything else along this line already previously stated in this thread. @Broadsword This is what you have done. Not one old-school 'sin wanted the original 'sin revamp but here we are still talking about it 2+ years later and how it just ruins the game more... Along with every other change that has been made.

    Wake up call yet?
  • Armarnidi wrote: »
    Gavner wrote: »
    Sure np, I am perfectly fine reverting Assassin changes before 1.121 if thats what you want. You got my back, get those old poisons, lower back some CS dmg, remove teleport etc. I mean I can live with that.

    CS dmg was higher then and old poisons hit harder

    https://imgur.com/ZbusFC4

    Wtf, I give up on this topic. I doubt most of stealthers want to go pre 1.121 (altho visiables would love that), so don't ruin it for them. :)
  • SL usually helps on my savage right before I run into 16 rangers or scouts.

    If you run solo into a group of 8 or 16 archers you`re dead before you can launch SL :D


    Atm a common stealth group is at least 3, up to 8.
    If you don`t wanna see this numbers raising up to 2fg as a standard i`d keep my fingers under the desk, not even thinking about nerfing something a bit. :D
  • OK. Let me try and illustrate the obvious: Arthurian Lore
    Camelot, Right? Chivalry. Nobility. How does moving through the world completely invisible right up to and including close enough to stab someone fit into that scenario? Come on! Be real.
    I'm not against having the ability to hide or blend in or evade detection by being far enough away to avoid 'target nearest enemy'. If there were enough trees and rocks and other environmental graphics to use and a believable camouflage archers could utilize stealth.
    I'm sorry but the sneaky, underhanded invisible "perf" fits more into a guerrilla warfare-style gaming mode than one tailored around the Age of Camelot.
    Hmm? Maybe that's where the Dark came from? That would be ironic. Dark as invisibility. Tell me. Where else in the realm is anything invisible. Zephyrs come as close as anything I can think of as invisible.
    Sneaky just doesn't belong in Camelot. Clever? OK.
  • The funny thing is, that buff is up in one of my groups I play in, but it doesn’t effect anyone of us. /shrug
  • Cartoan wrote: »
    OK. Let me try and illustrate the obvious: Arthurian Lore
    Camelot, Right? Chivalry. Nobility. How does moving through the world completely invisible right up to and including close enough to stab someone fit into that scenario? Come on! Be real.
    I'm not against having the ability to hide or blend in or evade detection by being far enough away to avoid 'target nearest enemy'. If there were enough trees and rocks and other environmental graphics to use and a believable camouflage archers could utilize stealth.
    I'm sorry but the sneaky, underhanded invisible "perf" fits more into a guerrilla warfare-style gaming mode than one tailored around the Age of Camelot.
    Hmm? Maybe that's where the Dark came from? That would be ironic. Dark as invisibility. Tell me. Where else in the realm is anything invisible. Zephyrs come as close as anything I can think of as invisible.
    Sneaky just doesn't belong in Camelot. Clever? OK.

    Camelot is a funny place.
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    The funny thing is, that buff is up in one of my groups I play in, but it doesn’t effect anyone of us. /shrug

    It should maybe it is not working as intended.
  • Every patch assassin class gets nerfed . There is a huge stealth community that enjoys the game but now a lot of us are getting fed up with the nerfs. Nerf poison people scream and they do, Nerf Crit strike and they do. We wear leather armor whats next putting us in cloth. You dont want us running in stealth groups but as they keep nerfing its the only way to get ok rps's. I broke away from the Stealth Zerg and I am having a better time gaming. Every one has stealth lore and they can find us now and it does make it challenging but still fun. I say leave it as it is. But for GOD'S SAKE STOP NERFING US!!

  • Like I said before, is it really a nerf if they are slowly removing the boosts they received?

    Take it from me, I’m a terrible player and have been able to hold my own fairly well on my sb. This is only due to the live and ez mode assasins are for the most part. Back in the day with weapon swapping and lack of abilities and such, I used to get my ass handed to me on my inf.

    I’d hardly call them nerfs, more like letting a little helium out of the balloon to bring them back to earth.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Badgor wrote: »
    Every patch assassin class gets nerfed . There is a huge stealth community that enjoys the game but now a lot of us are getting fed up with the nerfs. Nerf poison people scream and they do, Nerf Crit strike and they do. We wear leather armor whats next putting us in cloth. You dont want us running in stealth groups but as they keep nerfing its the only way to get ok rps's. I broke away from the Stealth Zerg and I am having a better time gaming. Every one has stealth lore and they can find us now and it does make it challenging but still fun. I say leave it as it is. But for GOD'S SAKE STOP NERFING US!!

    ...You do realize that all 3 Assassin classes are, and have been, arguably the strongest archtypes in the game for years right?

    Edit: 5/10 of the top solo kills earned last week were assassin archtypes and only 1/25 most deaths earned last week belonged to an assassin (poor guy).
    Post edited by Amp_Phetamine on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Badgor wrote: »
    Every patch assassin class gets nerfed . There is a huge stealth community that enjoys the game but now a lot of us are getting fed up with the nerfs. Nerf poison people scream and they do, Nerf Crit strike and they do. We wear leather armor whats next putting us in cloth. You dont want us running in stealth groups but as they keep nerfing its the only way to get ok rps's. I broke away from the Stealth Zerg and I am having a better time gaming. Every one has stealth lore and they can find us now and it does make it challenging but still fun. I say leave it as it is. But for GOD'S SAKE STOP NERFING US!!

    And yet your class still consistently gets more solo kills than any other class. I was looking it up today and if you combined ALL the solo kills last on scout, hunter, and ranger it didn't equal the lowest assassins solo kills.

    Inf- 631 NS- 710 SB- 697
    Scout- 77 Ranger- 270 Hunter- 199

    Yep, those assassins have it so badly....
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • Badgor wrote: »
    Every patch assassin class gets nerfed . There is a huge stealth community that enjoys the game but now a lot of us are getting fed up with the nerfs. Nerf poison people scream and they do, Nerf Crit strike and they do. We wear leather armor whats next putting us in cloth. You dont want us running in stealth groups but as they keep nerfing its the only way to get ok rps's. I broke away from the Stealth Zerg and I am having a better time gaming. Every one has stealth lore and they can find us now and it does make it challenging but still fun. I say leave it as it is. But for GOD'S SAKE STOP NERFING US!!

    ...You do realize that all 3 Assassin classes are, and have been, arguably the strongest archtypes in the game for years right?

    Edit: 5/10 of the top solo kills earned last week were assassin archtypes and only 1/25 most deaths earned last week belonged to an assassin (poor guy).

    Because we do not run with a 50 person zerg and a lot of us only play one toon plus we dont bounce from realm to realm we are loyal to what ever realm we started in. On Hib we give intel to our zerg and other groups we play as sneaks should.

  • edited November 2018 PM
    Badgor wrote: »
    Badgor wrote: »
    Every patch assassin class gets nerfed . There is a huge stealth community that enjoys the game but now a lot of us are getting fed up with the nerfs. Nerf poison people scream and they do, Nerf Crit strike and they do. We wear leather armor whats next putting us in cloth. You dont want us running in stealth groups but as they keep nerfing its the only way to get ok rps's. I broke away from the Stealth Zerg and I am having a better time gaming. Every one has stealth lore and they can find us now and it does make it challenging but still fun. I say leave it as it is. But for GOD'S SAKE STOP NERFING US!!

    ...You do realize that all 3 Assassin classes are, and have been, arguably the strongest archtypes in the game for years right?

    Edit: 5/10 of the top solo kills earned last week were assassin archtypes and only 1/25 most deaths earned last week belonged to an assassin (poor guy).

    Because we do not run with a 50 person zerg and a lot of us only play one toon plus we dont bounce from realm to realm we are loyal to what ever realm we started in. On Hib we give intel to our zerg and other groups we play as sneaks should.

    I do the same as well on my ranger, as do many other non-assassin stealthers. Sins are at the very top of the food chain. Quit crying. All these nerfs and your classes still perform this well show how powerful of a class it is. You have had some things added that helped out on those nerfs. Added hp cap, heal procs, and ip charge.
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • SymSym
    edited November 2018 PM
    Assasins are currently the strongest melee class in the game...you are out of your god damn mind if you think they are nerfed.

    Just take a look at vlao or Vicom soloing 3 people straight up without even kiting.
    Post edited by Sym on
    Symonde (Cleric)
    Symfriar (Friar duh)
    Symsorc (Double duh)
    Sympets (Theurg)
    Symmond (Arms)
    Some random mids and hibs
  • I tabulated Solo Kills divided by Players for each class to highlight which class, based on its population, solos the most. All values were taken from the excido herald for last week. If I understand it correctly, players only count if they've earned at least 1 RP for that week.

    Infiltrator 7.09
    Nightshade 6.45
    Shadowblade 5.32
    Reaver 4.95
    Valewalker 3.46
    Mercenary 3.10
    Necromancer 2.55
    Valkyrie 2.21
    Vampiir 2.14
    Ranger 2.00
    Berserker 1.68
    Paladin 1.53
    Spiritmaster 1.46
    Hunter 1.37
    Enchanter 1.26
    Shaman 1.12
    Savage 1.06
    Skald 1.06
    Champion 1.03
    Blademaster 1.02
    Theurgist 0.98
    Sorcerer 0.84
    Warlock 0.75
    Thane 0.71
    Mentalist 0.68
    Wizard 0.61
    Bainshee 0.60
    Eldritch 0.53
    Animist 0.53
    Druid 0.53
    Scout 0.52
    Heretic 0.48
    Friar 0.35
    Bonedancer 0.35
    Cleric 0.24
    Runemaster 0.20
    Cabalist 0.19
    Warden 0.10
    Minstrel 0.05
    Bard 0.02
    Healer 0.01

    Unsurprisingly, all three assassins are ranked at the top followed by hybrids/light tanks with the archers interspersed. My interpretation of this data is that archers are more prone to group (or leech) than assassins. If a visible class was on top of this list, then I would agree that assassins might need some help.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Sym wrote: »
    Assasins are currently the strongest melee class in the game...you are out of your god damn mind if you think they are nerfed.

    Just take a look at vlao or Vicom soloing 3 people straight up without even kiting.

    Strongest melee class, what?. Soloing 2-3 people can be done on most toons based on what classes you are fighting and if you are properly templated and use your heal procs from items, heal potions and healing RA's at the proper moments. These people you mention probably worked hard at templating their toon and working on fighting to get to the point where they can fight like this and are high realm ranked based on there achievements. If you going to complain on this subject it should at the fact that there are too many heal procs in the game.

    That's Skill...

    Post edited by Vanzblade on
  • I tabulated Solo Kills divided by Players for each class to highlight which class, based on its population, solos the most. All values were taken from the excido herald for last week. If I understand it correctly, players only count if they've earned at least 1 RP for that week.

    Infiltrator 7.09
    Nightshade 6.45
    Shadowblade 5.32
    Reaver 4.95
    Valewalker 3.46
    Mercenary 3.10
    Necromancer 2.55
    Valkyrie 2.21
    Vampiir 2.14
    Ranger 2.00
    Berserker 1.68
    Paladin 1.53
    Spiritmaster 1.46
    Hunter 1.37
    Enchanter 1.26
    Shaman 1.12
    Savage 1.06
    Skald 1.06
    Champion 1.03
    Blademaster 1.02
    Theurgist 0.98
    Sorcerer 0.84
    Warlock 0.75
    Thane 0.71
    Mentalist 0.68
    Wizard 0.61
    Bainshee 0.60
    Eldritch 0.53
    Animist 0.53
    Druid 0.53
    Scout 0.52
    Heretic 0.48
    Friar 0.35
    Bonedancer 0.35
    Cleric 0.24
    Runemaster 0.20
    Cabalist 0.19
    Warden 0.10
    Minstrel 0.05
    Bard 0.02
    Healer 0.01

    Unsurprisingly, all three assassins are ranked at the top followed by hybrids/light tanks with the archers interspersed. My interpretation of this data is that archers are more prone to group (or leech) than assassins. If a visible class was on top of this list, then I would agree that assassins might need some help.

    What does this have to do with anything. So the people on this list can solo and your point is? Assassin classes can solo right? and..... How many stealth classes from this list were run over by some group running permanent stealth lore via charges? Meaning multiple toons in the group running a stealth lore buff always. Is that stat in here. Not likely. How many of these assassin classes were found by Necromancers and Vamps? Visible toons have no business in the stealth world. Group a Stealth Class if you want to find us you guys are already doing it anyway.
  • The point is, despite there being stealth lore, Assassins are still the best solo classes in the game. Removing stealth lore entirely is not going to stop groups from hunting stealthers. Running solo does not make you immune to being ganked. I suspect those who solo on their visible classes are griefed far more than any stealther class.

    What I will agree with you on is the removal of stealth lore abilities on Vamps/Necromancers. I never thought these were necessary. However, the stealth lore charges can stay the same.
    "The grab bag isn't for explaining every single class change decision or reasoning or that's all we would ever do." - John_Broadsword
    "The type of of dev communication of 30 mins a day updates mentioned here just isn't feasible." - Carol_Broadsword
    "Our Studio. Our Rules." - http://www.mythicentertainment.com/
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