Well sure agree on that, it's just odd coming back to game seeing a support class excel in more areas then most of dedicated dps casters. A Warlock+Healer duo while being great Its just what I expect from a Support/CC+DPS Caster. I just can't get my head around why make a support/healing class capable of doing this, but oh well.
I really really hope to see a balancing itemwise, economywise, and classwise rather then making differences even bigger between power levels. Just feels like theres huge difference in class and item power level, the bonus of economy boom wouldn't matter as much if the item's power level difference wouldnt be this huge. With this much added bonuses and stats I am not sure it's even possible to moderately balance the classes.
The dps with the mitigation and RR dump is insane lol. I just keep reminding myself, hes a Healer class, hes a Healer class... OP Chars always existed, but im sure 90% of casters can envy cleric DPS utility and mitigation at the same time lol.
Edit: Yes, some communication probably wouldn't bring harm.
I'm not sure if Westies is 50 smite but generally smite dps without Ascension (level 50 ability) is 400-500 dps give or take with resists. Ascension allows the cleric to smite at cap/near cap dps but they can't heal or use moc iirc.
Plus with his RR he probably has his passive dps realm abilities near max + spell penetration in template.
Besides it's not like this is new. Prior to Westies it was Castertroy on his smite cleric.
I suppose technically you could claim his Archtype is that of a base healer but he's not going to be running around pumping out 1000k value heals or shearing targets with how high into smite you have to be to utilize it to that level.
If excidio is correct, its 214.9 value DD on top of the mezz's, melee bane rr5, instas + much more. Surely RR makes it much stronger then base, but the ammount of tools on top of that value DD on a class with high survivability I think just too much. Either the util or the DD value. I mean sure, back then casters had the edge in dex and acu, much faster cast speed with more acuity value. With todays items that difference I think mostly disappeared, a Cleric easily cast at cap speed with crazy ammount of acu in temp. Add RR to that and well... It's capable.
I don't think ofc that this is the worst thing in the game right now, but trust me it's a funny feeling after returning from a few year break to see a cleric DEMOLISH someone in matter of seconds, while they just dont want to die either Back in my time Smite clerics did exist ofc, but more like a funky specc some ppl fooled around with for moderate results. I still think that DPS rivals most DPS of casters on that is probably just over the top, but thats not my greatest issue.
I blame more of this small issues on itemization powercreep as previously wrote. On the scale the power level of items are, these class/race differences matter less and less. Add the ruins of economy into this factor, and the scale between an old temp and new is just massive. I tried old temp just to get basically **** on, was lucky enough to be able to temp 1 char. Theres HUGE performance difference, it's like I tried to run RvR on a lvl 40 vs lvl 50s, just as soon I got temped my success rate skyrocketed. With the accesability to these items the difference power level of temps is just too big I think, while they blur the line between race and class differences.
If excidio is correct, its 214.9 value DD on top of the mezz's, melee bane rr5, instas + much more. Surely RR makes it much stronger then base, but the ammount of tools on top of that value DD on a class with high survivability I think just too much. Either the util or the DD value. I mean sure, back then casters had the edge in dex and acu, much faster cast speed with more acuity value. With todays items that difference I think mostly disappeared, a Cleric easily cast at cap speed with crazy ammount of acu in temp. Add RR to that and well... It's capable.
I don't think ofc that this is the worst thing in the game right now, but trust me it's a funny feeling after returning from a few year break to see a cleric DEMOLISH someone in matter of seconds, while they just dont want to die either Back in my time Smite clerics did exist ofc, but more like a funky specc some ppl fooled around with for moderate results. I still think that DPS rivals most DPS of casters on that is probably just over the top, but thats not my greatest issue.
I blame more of this small issues on itemization powercreep as previously wrote. On the scale the power level of items are, these class/race differences matter less and less. Add the ruins of economy into this factor, and the scale between an old temp and new is just massive. I tried old temp just to get basically **** on, was lucky enough to be able to temp 1 char. Theres HUGE performance difference, it's like I tried to run RvR on a lvl 40 vs lvl 50s, just as soon I got temped my success rate skyrocketed. With the accesability to these items the difference power level of temps is just too big I think, while they blur the line between race and class differences.
I completely agree with you in regards to the item/power creep. I remember BS stating, at the time, that these new 'to-be-introduced' items wouldn't be game breaking nor necessities for templates (lol). Of course their are counter arguments stating that in certain 8man's/zerg game play you don't need them, which of course is true to a point, but characters are certainly far better off with them than without.
Once every ten min I can surge dmg. Just another timer in a timer based class. Realize I am not a healing class with my current spec. I heal for less than a mentalist. And base nuke for less. Stun duration for less (if they have curse set). Mez duration for less. Basically everything for less except I have chain. And chain means less now that dmg creep has set in. A 50 spec smiter is not a healer.
P.S. smiters back in the day could still do some nasty stuff. I used to tank 4 SBs at once while I MOC them down. Can’t do that anymore. Grant it... they were poopy runningwithS SBs.
Westies, trust me no offense as mentioned im far less annoyed by smite cleric then itemization in general.
However after seeing your performance since I do not have 50 smite cleric I just checked excidio charplan. I see 214.9 Value DD, 1min dur mess, some kind of health buffer, return dmg, HoT proc, insta pb mess (yes this is lower dur like all insta mess), stun.
Of course theres a few casters with similar capabilities, but some even got less util and purely dps (many casters can't really solo). Also I wouldnt say ABS% HP pool, deffensive RAs doesnt matter. Thing is cleric still much more tanky then most casters I've met, difference is most of them kite me or die, you just tank me for MoC duration. Yes you need to RA dump to be that good in some situation, but nowdays most of classes have 10+min timers on powerfull abilities, so I dont see a difference there.
Truth be told, I never had opportunity to run into you without all of them available
Edit: So I may be wrong on abilities if excidio isn't accurate
Edit 2: Also I really wish this was the biggest problem with game in general, it's almost non existent. Just surprised what current items make cleric capable even if it needs to push some buttons. I am not SB but most of them didn't give me headache before, and they defo did less dmg to me.
I really want to read all those things that are edited out by mods, maybe that is just me, but usually they will have something relevant (or even better) something that will make me laugh.
There is no rhyme or reason why a <cough> healing class should be able to do that much damage. But we are not looking at any kind of balance. I guess it would just been seen as one out of a very few that actually play a smiter anymore, therefore, no reason to change things. Unfortunately, best way to deal with it, is to avoid the person if possible until such time as you feel you can complete well with all the toys at your disposal.
As for the community being toxic; that is a pretty big sweeping statement of the community. There are a lot of decent players/people, that tend to stay away from these (and other boards), well, basically for sanity sake. Most of the people that are still here, have been playing for a very long time. You give enough (insert your own word here) to people, eventually, they are going to turn around and start calling you on everything. I do mean everything. Some see it as toxic, others see it as a way to express their frustration with the outstanding issues that continue to happen.
Find some good people to run with, if that is your choosing. Makes the game more fun and those that you find toxic, just like in life, are best to be avoided.
Note - this is all one persons opinion, you are welcome to disagree or agree as you see fit
There is some great advice there, thank you for trying to shine some light on this maybe way too depressing topic already.
Altho I did run into 2 smite clerics yesterday not just Westies, I kind of already regret bringing up a topic that probably the least issue in DAoC. Maybe my frustration on returning to this enviroment, watching the item creep and what classes got capable nowdays with these amazing templates kind of overwhelmed me.
I still came back to play with my best mate, which is of course a nice thing similar you recommended, we got a few bumps I previously mentioned making being positive kind of hard, while I feel like many things could be improved with not much technical difficulty. (If we already made these items mandatory, allow them to be obtainable more easily, try to fix economy etc)
As for my comment on sometimes toxic community, I got thrown out from a PvE raid grp because on a fresh start i had epic armor that time. Some ppl just bragged me having 4M+ easily when I asked for advice, and laughed at me. I got rofled on maze pick up spot being killed by rr12+ ranger duo in my epic armor rr1. etc etc.. I mean sure these things did exist all the time, but felt like I can access RvR with friends just more easily, and found maybe a tad more helpful ppl actually giving me tips without telling me how newb i am.
I got plenty of rr5+ chars up to rr8. Maybe I was wrong to start from lvl 1, but my rr8 wasn't better in his old template tbh. Of course now having a template things turn around fast, but its mostly thanks to the things I could sell on housing that still had some value, and transfering all my remaining plats from old times from 3 realms to one just to temp my only char I play right now. It absolutely felt like a harsh welcome tbh, and without new temp it was a terrible experiance with all these new items.
Thats all my 5 cents, sorry if I upset anyone, really wasn't the point.
Thanks
@Gavner - you are giving your opinion coming back to the game and the experience that you have had. TBH I am appalled that people act the way they do, and I am sorry that there are people out there, who choose to be a@@holes and think it's funny. There are some really nice folks out there, they seem to be harder to find, but they are there.
BS can't change how people behave, but they certainly can change things to make it easier for returning players to the game. If they don't start addressing these issues and all people read is how bad it is trying to get up to speed just to compete in big boy rvr; people are not going to even bother.
From your post I know you don't play Alb, but if you play Mid, send me a pm and let me know who you are in game. I will do my best to help you out with anything you may need (and your buddy) might need with regards to template items.
No offense taken gav.
Things people don’t understand about smite clerics.
Excedio is wrong/misleading. While it delves high, brain buff doesn’t effect clerics. Smite hits for 360 avg before crits and no ascension. Smiters have a 20%ish spell resist rate bug they have to deal with. Power issues limit sustained dmg output.
You are no longer a healer when you spec 50 smite. Mentalists , pallys etc heal for more that you at that point.
The reason I won is because I’m RR12 and designed to drop all my toys to stand my ground and deliver. Most people don’t expect that style of play and by the time they figure it out they are dead.
I know I’m not the only smiter.. but if it was really OP there would be many more solo smiters. I have trouble killing many many classes myself your class us usually not one of them.
Smiters certainly are not what they were when the game came out. Personally, I love to see what is classified as a 'healer' class, beat the poop out of people. It is unexpected and slightly awesome at the same time ;D
Some classes that are classified as 'healers' can, while others can't!
Not going to start anything, but there`s simply no other archetype healer that can deal such burst damage.
Screenshot inc if Westies hits me again for 1xxx damage, 2-3 times in a raw on 40% spirit resists and neutral armor against spirit damage. Be quick on phaseshift or be dead.
I`m not going to hit something in a template for such damage, not with 398 dex, not with falcon eye 9 and crit luck...as a ranged dps class, not even on cloth with bubble down.
And a healer can do what to me? Stun, mezz, heal me to death or tickle me with his hammer.
Comments
There`s a healer/lock duo running around, think it`s easier to deal with 2 westies as with them.
I really really hope to see a balancing itemwise, economywise, and classwise rather then making differences even bigger between power levels. Just feels like theres huge difference in class and item power level, the bonus of economy boom wouldn't matter as much if the item's power level difference wouldnt be this huge. With this much added bonuses and stats I am not sure it's even possible to moderately balance the classes.
I'm not sure if Westies is 50 smite but generally smite dps without Ascension (level 50 ability) is 400-500 dps give or take with resists. Ascension allows the cleric to smite at cap/near cap dps but they can't heal or use moc iirc.
Plus with his RR he probably has his passive dps realm abilities near max + spell penetration in template.
Besides it's not like this is new. Prior to Westies it was Castertroy on his smite cleric.
I suppose technically you could claim his Archtype is that of a base healer but he's not going to be running around pumping out 1000k value heals or shearing targets with how high into smite you have to be to utilize it to that level.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
I don't think ofc that this is the worst thing in the game right now, but trust me it's a funny feeling after returning from a few year break to see a cleric DEMOLISH someone in matter of seconds, while they just dont want to die either
I blame more of this small issues on itemization powercreep as previously wrote. On the scale the power level of items are, these class/race differences matter less and less. Add the ruins of economy into this factor, and the scale between an old temp and new is just massive. I tried old temp just to get basically **** on, was lucky enough to be able to temp 1 char. Theres HUGE performance difference, it's like I tried to run RvR on a lvl 40 vs lvl 50s, just as soon I got temped my success rate skyrocketed. With the accesability to these items the difference power level of temps is just too big I think, while they blur the line between race and class differences.
I completely agree with you in regards to the item/power creep. I remember BS stating, at the time, that these new 'to-be-introduced' items wouldn't be game breaking nor necessities for templates (lol). Of course their are counter arguments stating that in certain 8man's/zerg game play you don't need them, which of course is true to a point, but characters are certainly far better off with them than without.
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/e7I0A3ruDmc.jpg
https://www.granks.com/daoc/signature/char/IY0C9fELOGQ.jpg
P.S. smiters back in the day could still do some nasty stuff. I used to tank 4 SBs at once while I MOC them down. Can’t do that anymore. Grant it... they were poopy runningwithS SBs.
However after seeing your performance since I do not have 50 smite cleric I just checked excidio charplan. I see 214.9 Value DD, 1min dur mess, some kind of health buffer, return dmg, HoT proc, insta pb mess (yes this is lower dur like all insta mess), stun.
Of course theres a few casters with similar capabilities, but some even got less util and purely dps (many casters can't really solo). Also I wouldnt say ABS% HP pool, deffensive RAs doesnt matter. Thing is cleric still much more tanky then most casters I've met, difference is most of them kite me or die, you just tank me for MoC duration. Yes you need to RA dump to be that good in some situation, but nowdays most of classes have 10+min timers on powerfull abilities, so I dont see a difference there.
Truth be told, I never had opportunity to run into you without all of them available
Edit: So I may be wrong on abilities if excidio isn't accurate
Edit 2: Also I really wish this was the biggest problem with game in general, it's almost non existent. Just surprised what current items make cleric capable even if it needs to push some buttons. I am not SB but most of them didn't give me headache before, and they defo did less dmg to me.
There is no rhyme or reason why a <cough> healing class should be able to do that much damage. But we are not looking at any kind of balance. I guess it would just been seen as one out of a very few that actually play a smiter anymore, therefore, no reason to change things. Unfortunately, best way to deal with it, is to avoid the person if possible until such time as you feel you can complete well with all the toys at your disposal.
As for the community being toxic; that is a pretty big sweeping statement of the community. There are a lot of decent players/people, that tend to stay away from these (and other boards), well, basically for sanity sake. Most of the people that are still here, have been playing for a very long time. You give enough (insert your own word here) to people, eventually, they are going to turn around and start calling you on everything. I do mean everything. Some see it as toxic, others see it as a way to express their frustration with the outstanding issues that continue to happen.
Find some good people to run with, if that is your choosing. Makes the game more fun and those that you find toxic, just like in life, are best to be avoided.
Note - this is all one persons opinion, you are welcome to disagree or agree as you see fit
There is some great advice there, thank you for trying to shine some light on this maybe way too depressing topic already.
Altho I did run into 2 smite clerics yesterday not just Westies, I kind of already regret bringing up a topic that probably the least issue in DAoC. Maybe my frustration on returning to this enviroment, watching the item creep and what classes got capable nowdays with these amazing templates kind of overwhelmed me.
I still came back to play with my best mate, which is of course a nice thing similar you recommended, we got a few bumps I previously mentioned making being positive kind of hard, while I feel like many things could be improved with not much technical difficulty. (If we already made these items mandatory, allow them to be obtainable more easily, try to fix economy etc)
As for my comment on sometimes toxic community, I got thrown out from a PvE raid grp because on a fresh start i had epic armor that time. Some ppl just bragged me having 4M+ easily when I asked for advice, and laughed at me. I got rofled on maze pick up spot being killed by rr12+ ranger duo in my epic armor rr1. etc etc.. I mean sure these things did exist all the time, but felt like I can access RvR with friends just more easily, and found maybe a tad more helpful ppl actually giving me tips without telling me how newb i am.
I got plenty of rr5+ chars up to rr8. Maybe I was wrong to start from lvl 1, but my rr8 wasn't better in his old template tbh. Of course now having a template things turn around fast, but its mostly thanks to the things I could sell on housing that still had some value, and transfering all my remaining plats from old times from 3 realms to one just to temp my only char I play right now. It absolutely felt like a harsh welcome tbh, and without new temp it was a terrible experiance with all these new items.
Thats all my 5 cents, sorry if I upset anyone, really wasn't the point.
Thanks
BS can't change how people behave, but they certainly can change things to make it easier for returning players to the game. If they don't start addressing these issues and all people read is how bad it is trying to get up to speed just to compete in big boy rvr; people are not going to even bother.
From your post I know you don't play Alb, but if you play Mid, send me a pm and let me know who you are in game. I will do my best to help you out with anything you may need (and your buddy) might need with regards to template items.
Things people don’t understand about smite clerics.
Excedio is wrong/misleading. While it delves high, brain buff doesn’t effect clerics. Smite hits for 360 avg before crits and no ascension. Smiters have a 20%ish spell resist rate bug they have to deal with. Power issues limit sustained dmg output.
You are no longer a healer when you spec 50 smite. Mentalists , pallys etc heal for more that you at that point.
The reason I won is because I’m RR12 and designed to drop all my toys to stand my ground and deliver. Most people don’t expect that style of play and by the time they figure it out they are dead.
I know I’m not the only smiter.. but if it was really OP there would be many more solo smiters. I have trouble killing many many classes myself your class us usually not one of them.
Some classes that are classified as 'healers' can, while others can't!
Not going to start anything, but there`s simply no other archetype healer that can deal such burst damage.
Screenshot inc if Westies hits me again for 1xxx damage, 2-3 times in a raw on 40% spirit resists and neutral armor against spirit damage. Be quick on phaseshift or be dead.
I`m not going to hit something in a template for such damage, not with 398 dex, not with falcon eye 9 and crit luck...as a ranged dps class, not even on cloth with bubble down.
And a healer can do what to me? Stun, mezz, heal me to death or tickle me with his hammer.