Balance Request: Normalizing Positional Style Damage

A Cheat program used by many melee players was "legalized" at some juncture. (I suspect due to inability to enforce the CoC and police the activity by a skeleton CSR staff). Due to this decision, positional styles - which boast style effects and damage scaling balanced around situational use - are being employed at a much higher rate than originally intended - or was even possible in the past.

This factor, combines in a nasty fashion with DAoC's lack of collision detection - creating a situation where styled damage is vastly exceeding the established norm, and most melee defense forms can be easily by-passed, (yes this is easy), by walking into your opponent after applying a snare or disease, with few windows to escape the situation. (Two examples of many).

I understand that there are many considerations which prevent the developers from implementing collision detection - from developer resources, to budget, engine limitations, griefing and even enemy realms blockading access points. This issue is likely to remain for the life of the product.

However, examining positional style damage globally is well within the capabilities of the current development staff and budget.


It is my opinion that, due to the ease of executing these styles - caused by the use of third-party programs and exacerbated by a lack of collision detection - positionals should globally have their damage vales scaled. It is undeniable that they now land with vastly greater frequency, and as a result, melee players are forced to install and configure non-broadsword software to effectively participate. (This alone has numerous deleterious effects, which are very obvious, and beyond the scope of our discussion).

From my perspective, positional style should reward status effects - rather than damage, as they are almost guaranteed to land -. rather than being situational skills - thanks to the above factors. I would suggest the team reduce positional style damage bonus significantly, and focus on effects like snares, attack speed debuffs, fumble chance, ablative procs, health/power/endurance regen, power or endurance drains, silence, nearsight, disease, ect. Positional styles and chains that lack these effects should receive them.

It's unfortunate that we've come to this place, but multiple factors, (cheating, inability to enforce the EULA, lack of collision detection), have created a very visible balance problem in what was once a fairly smooth melee system. A re-examination of the damage dealt by positional is very much in order.

Thanks for your continued support.
Post edited by Northerncross_G on
- The derision of your enemies is the highest possible form of praise.

- I intend to coarsen. I want stark contrasts drawn. I want polarization. I will not quietly accept clown-world so as not to upset anyone. I am not tolerant of our impending and increasing slavery.

Comments

  • There has never been collision between players, nor NPCs, and there never will be. Would cause too many issues.
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  • I agree that use-anytime positional styles are a problem. I do not agree that changing them from damage to status effects will make this any better though. It would just give people use-anytime status effects which could be even worse for things like fumble.

    A long time ago, these styles were much harder to execute because the success area/angles were smaller. I think we need a return to the original formula that made the styles difficult to execute. If this can't be done, then the side positional stuns should be moved to the 2nd style in the style chain.

    It's sort of stupid nerfing slam for hybrids to 5 seconds when the 8 second side style stun at 35? spec is basically a use anytime / anywhere style.
  • DaRedANT wrote: »
    There has never been collision between players, nor NPCs, and there never will be. Would cause too many issues.

    I addressed and acknowledged this already.
    - The derision of your enemies is the highest possible form of praise.

    - I intend to coarsen. I want stark contrasts drawn. I want polarization. I will not quietly accept clown-world so as not to upset anyone. I am not tolerant of our impending and increasing slavery.
  • Shieldla wrote: »
    I agree that use-anytime positional styles are a problem. I do not agree that changing them from damage to status effects will make this any better though. It would just give people use-anytime status effects which could be even worse for things like fumble.

    A long time ago, these styles were much harder to execute because the success area/angles were smaller. I think we need a return to the original formula that made the styles difficult to execute. If this can't be done, then the side positional stuns should be moved to the 2nd style in the style chain.

    It's sort of stupid nerfing slam for hybrids to 5 seconds when the 8 second side style stun at 35? spec is basically a use anytime / anywhere style.

    This is an excellent point. I had forgotten the developers widened flanks at some point.

    This might actually be a better solution to the issue. Both in terms of resources and game balance.

    Nice catch.
    - The derision of your enemies is the highest possible form of praise.

    - I intend to coarsen. I want stark contrasts drawn. I want polarization. I will not quietly accept clown-world so as not to upset anyone. I am not tolerant of our impending and increasing slavery.
  • The current system is a bit broken.

    You can spec 42 shield for a 5s use anytime stun

    or

    You can spec 35 shield for a 8s use anytime stun and put the extra points into something else.

    We are rewarding people who glitch out the melee system heavily by giving them longer stuns and more spec points to use in other things. It is way easier to execute the positional attacks than it is to defend against them. I'm a little sad this is something that won't ever be looked at because it certainly hasn't aged into the macro age very well.
  • edited June 2023 PM
    It definitely needs to be looked at.

    I like the idea of reverting the arcs to what they used to be. That would help a great deal.

    One interesting bug I noticed when logging on my second account was that I was able to "push" the second character around with the first one by walking into it - until I alt-tabbed onto that screen of the second character - then I was able to walk through them.

    A bug I know, but it was interesting to see actual collision detection happening.

    A pipe dream (impossible - I understand, but I can dream) would be people's strength scores being used in a calculation when pressing against one another. Something like Player_One_Str+(random number) vs. Player_Two-Str+(Random number) = pushed back x number of units.

    The random numbers would keep it possible for trolls, firbys and Half-Ogres to be relatively equal in shoving matches with proper strength investment.

    Where my impossible pipe dream get's tricky is how this works out with multiple people shoving and pushing, or stacked formations of people. For obvious reasons, collision would not apply to realm mates. (Griefing or just plain accidentally - going afk and blocking a portal with your giant troll unintentionally). Enemy realms blockading keep doors might be a problem - or it might not. It may well become an actual tactic that gives heavy tanks something to do now that they can't climb walls.

    Oh, what we could do with a few million in budget and three devs.

    But, I'm wandering. Revert the arcs, and this will help a great deal with the issue intriduced by allowing the cheat programs.
    Post edited by Northerncross_G on
    - The derision of your enemies is the highest possible form of praise.

    - I intend to coarsen. I want stark contrasts drawn. I want polarization. I will not quietly accept clown-world so as not to upset anyone. I am not tolerant of our impending and increasing slavery.
  • edited August 2023 PM
    [removed]
    Post edited by Carol_Broadsword on
  • are savages the only melee class that don't have an anytime or frontal melee or reactionary stun style ? savages are the only melee class that need to permanently abuse game mechanics to be able to abuse game mechanics to actually stun ? in a group or zerg fight, i can land a side or back stun once in a while, in a one vs one, there is no chance i can land a stun as a savage without abusing a mechanic, and i'm not good at that.
    Stor Hurfru Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Baron Muylaetrex, Undead guy. Baronet Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. Baronet Facetothewallmuppet, support type standing with his face to the wall most of the time. Baronetess Yovonne, taxi. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • TBH abusing the melee mechanics just seems to be part game. I sort of doubt BS has the technical expertise to address the problem even if they wanted to given the change to easy positional styles was made so long ago. Back styles seem a little bit more challenging, but side styles do not even require a macro to execute side styles regularly. You don't even really need to be off to the side, just a few degrees off center when you do the style most of the time.

    I don't think savages get their stun in the first style of the chain too unlike a lot of the dual wield / shield classes who are pretty much getting a use anytime stun for super cheap investment. Its nice to land a positional stun CHAIN anytime, but the classes with the opener side stuns are the ones benefiting a lot more than everybody else.

    And really it even looks stupid fighting somebody just standing inside each other's character seeing who can twitch and glitch better. A complete change back to where people just stood in front of each other and rolled dice would NOT be good and is not called for, but the existing ease of twitch and glitch detracts a bit from the game I feel. You either join them or don't fight 1v1 as a melee. There's also a rather clear distinction I find too between people trying to "dance" around to execute styles, and people just running into the middle of your character twitching out the entire fight.

    Maybe instead of messing with the arcs for attacking, they should leave them exactly like they are and increase the angle passive defense works as it is spec'd higher.

    Parry for example has something like a 120? degree arc and actually caps at 50% rate meaning there's no incentive to spec it beyond a certain point. If increasing parry spec to 50 expanded that arc 25 degrees on each side, then there would be a 170 degree angle to parry and more reason to base spec higher in it (vs low spec + MoParry which would increase % but not defending area). The numbers used above are just hypothetical examples, not suggestions, and may be a little bit high..






  • null
    Expanding character defense circumference coverage is the easiest fix here....
  • well the made side area much bigger..120 degrees i think. and you dont even have to be facing them..just inside that side arc. Collision wud be nice tho..prevent the macroed run thru crap.
  • parry is only good for 1v1..it gets divided down the more attackers you have. if someone is using the stand on top of you exploit step back..works well aganst circle strafers too.
  • The poor old combat system is showing it's age. I like the idea of toning down the side arcs. It seems like an easy way to handle much of the issue without needed to rebalance styles.

    I gave up on trying to 1:1 without the cheat software. (I know it's legal, but it will always be cheat software to me, forever stuck in 2007). I just farm plants and crates on my skald unless I get a buddy on. The hacks matter much less in a group situation. It's large enough to swing a 1:1 against well matched players however.

    I'm a BAF mob now. Heh.
    - The derision of your enemies is the highest possible form of praise.

    - I intend to coarsen. I want stark contrasts drawn. I want polarization. I will not quietly accept clown-world so as not to upset anyone. I am not tolerant of our impending and increasing slavery.
  • I would adjust 2 things, decrease the side arc (making it harder to land side styles), and remove /stick and /follow from RvR zones.
    Da ant family - 1801 1802 1803 1805 1806 1807 1808 1809 1989
    Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4506 4508 4509
    Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
    Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
    https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
  • edited February 3 PM
    DaRedANT wrote: »
    I would adjust 2 things, decrease the side arc (making it harder to land side styles), and remove /stick and /follow from RvR zones.

    Whooo group hard mode. Not sure if I really like that change, but it would make certainly banners and really obnoxious MTX more useful for finding your group leader in the chaos of the big keep fights. Or do you just mean for enemies?
    Post edited by Northerncross_G on
    - The derision of your enemies is the highest possible form of praise.

    - I intend to coarsen. I want stark contrasts drawn. I want polarization. I will not quietly accept clown-world so as not to upset anyone. I am not tolerant of our impending and increasing slavery.
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