Patch 1.127 Update and Upcoming Hot Fix Discussion

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  • Don’t change rangers rr5
  • Archers should lose access to free Remedy.

    They have already removed or rolled back all the other stealth "revamp" changes.
  • 1. Please revamp Artifacts. Personally I loved doing all encounters and the other ToA content. In my opinion the concept was one of the best PVE content that has ever been introduced. Unfortunately at launch there were too many issues and it needed some adjustment.
    2. Please nerf Necros and Valewalkers. Cast necro is way too strong looking at RPs per week this should proof this. No melee class should have access to a life leech at decent cast speed
    3. Enchanter pet snare needs to go or at least provide immunity after one snare. The damage of the pets is ridiculous as well.
    4. They’re air pets should provide stun immunity after a certain amount of stuns. Theurg RR5 should also provide stun immunity.
    5. Ranger RR5 shouldn’t disable Hunter Pet
    6. Activating Hunter Pet Buffs sometimes stuns the pet which puts the Hunter at a massive disadvantage trying to close the distance with the pet.
  • The chanter snare are not a pet issue , its a spell cast by the chanter in enhancement spec . I agreed the ranger rr5 is over the top versus pet .
  • Nice March patch...oh wait. >:)
  • puter wrote: »
    Nice March patch...oh wait. >:)

    Hey now,

    If you check the bug tracker they fixed FIVE bugs yesterday, and they even confirmed TWO bugs. First activity since January 10th :o
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • World is standing still since march...so in some sense we still have march...
  • I know the 3 peice set for Champs maybe too powerful but Champ suffers from the same thing alot of classes do and that is some of the base line class mechanics aren't great.

    Champ has low hp/ws for what it is

    Friar should get dex and not strength as a growth stat.

    Warden needs either a 2h weapon or weapon line revamp since it's the only melee/healer hybrid with out either a 2h or direct DD styles. Nobody wants them as anything but a healer even with the abs debuff.

    I dont know all the classes that well but from a big picture veiw maybe look at under utilized classes or options for the class and see what makes other classes in the same category more appealing (ie melee valk compared to melee warden/heretic)
  • Lol complaining about warden , no one want healer except for heal in group , give them high dps spec ! Seriously ....
  • null
    Or they are a hybrid so give them a viable option outside of just being a healer with shield spec and no CC.

    There is a huge diffrence between high dps and in line with like classes also.
  • Let's make all classes good at everything, that'll help balance.

    It's not a solo-only game. Every class has drawbacks, that's the point.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • But why make the class a hybrid class then? And I dont see how asking to be brought inline with like classes that serve the same roll is asking to be good at everything. Wardens having viable melee doesnt suddenly give them CC or Ranged DDs or Tank survivability tools.
  • Why should a warden, a healing hybrid, with PBT/celerity, be given the same melee dps as a valkyrie, the midgard melee-healer hybrid? Then Valkyrie should get something as well, no? Wardens are a staple of Hibernian groups, it's in the foundation. Valkyries do not serve the same role in groups as Wardens. So compare Warden to Friar, they seem pretty in-line. Not sure what you're asking for.

    Do you think hybrids should have no downside, just because theyre the combination of two separate roles? Do you think Warden has the same role(s) as a valkyrie? Hibernia already has Valewalker as their high-dps hybrid, Champions are pretty OP (for a while) in 1v1 scenarios, and if you remove the str growth on a friar, wouldn't their WS be, more trash?

    Why should a heretic be brought in line with Valkyrie melee? They already get insane dps on their ramping...

    You're asking for classes designed weaknesses to go away.

    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • @Samhayn Because the warden has access to melee styles (just like a friar) to peel and have melee dps options

    Warden in melee is about durability, can still use ML styles combined with abs debuff and do lot of dps.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a warden.

    I'd like to see @Brut logic and thought process behind his dual wield minstrel idea though.
  • Considering all the stuff BS has implemented over their short time developing this game, I can see Samhayn's suggestions being incorporated to some degree for the sake of change.
  • As stated, we'd like to have this Hot Fix come out towards the end of this coming week (or early the following week) to address some of the recent concerns around class and realm balance.

    We are currently looking at making some boosts to the PBAoE classes that did not get the 425 delve, Armsman and possibly all Heavy tanks and then making some adjustments/reductions to the AoE-portion of Champion stat debuffs (Curse set bonus), Enchanter's AoE loyalty cloak /use, and possibly a slight reduction to the 425 PBAoE delve.

    We'd love to hear your thoughts on the above as well as what else you think can be done to address some of the realm and class imbalances!

    This isn't so much imbalance than inconsistency...

    Bolts / Archery:
    1. The code for caster Bolts should be deleted and replaced with the same code being used for spell based Archery. We don't need two different systems for nearly the same thing. Be easier to tweak values in a simplified code base in the future.
    2. Spec bolts should be moved from a 2.5s cast / 20s cooldown model to a 5.0s / 0 s cooldown model that archery uses. They hit for less than even base DDs once you factor in resist debuffs (which are limited to 1500 range), but it would be nice if they had a real niche on the battlefield by being the class defining ability they are supposed to be.

    Bard / Minstrel / Skald:
    1. Can a final decision be made if it is "too powerful" to have chants/songs/music active -and- be able to use melee weapons at the same time and make it consistent? Right now this is just a nuisance and an inconsistent head scratcher for first timers (with free accounts) and returning players. Flavor is great and all, but there has to be a line of just being frustrating.

    OG Hybrids:
    1. Warden should get the option of Celtic Spear (Might actually see it used then), Friar should get the option of Flexible and Shield. Bring them back in line with the options available to later release support hybrids (Like Valkyrie) that have the choice between 2H/Parry and 1H/Shield.
    2. Valewalker should get Blunt/Blades/Piercing as an option. This whole single weapon choice is just too narrow in focus and isn't reflected in Savage, Thane, or other offensive hybrids.

    Pets:
    1. Druid pets need to be moved to baseline and be equal to the druid in level like all other pet classes. Be real nice if you could CHOOSE which pet you summoned as well. So much wasted time killing trees.

    CC Immunity:
    1. Can we make Immunity actually make you IMMUNE to the effects of CC. Like why is CC someone is 'IMMUNE' to interrupting their casting?

    Spell Casting Resists vs Melee Misses:
    1. Can you look into the resist rates of spells, because when I do play a caster I find it more effective to hit epic mobs with my staff (with or without CL styles) most of the time than actually cast a spell at them. That is just wrong on so many levels.
  • Yikes
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Why should a warden, a healing hybrid, with PBT/celerity, be given the same melee dps as a valkyrie, the midgard melee-healer hybrid? Then Valkyrie should get something as well, no? Wardens are a staple of Hibernian groups, it's in the foundation. Valkyries do not serve the same role in groups as Wardens. So compare Warden to Friar, they seem pretty in-line. Not sure what you're asking for.

    Do you think hybrids should have no downside, just because theyre the combination of two separate roles? Do you think Warden has the same role(s) as a valkyrie? Hibernia already has Valewalker as their high-dps hybrid, Champions are pretty OP (for a while) in 1v1 scenarios, and if you remove the str growth on a friar, wouldn't their WS be, more trash?

    Why should a heretic be brought in line with Valkyrie melee? They already get insane dps on their ramping...

    You're asking for classes designed weaknesses to go away.

    If Warden needs to be brought up to parity with Valkyrie, then why is Valkyrie due anything? It's not like the Warden can have high DPS weapon spec -and- Healing -and- Celerity/Bubble. You have to sacrifice one for the other two, but there is zero advantage to going weapon spec. Valks give up nothing to do it all. Also, do people still exist that think PBT is actually something special? I can't even count the number of attacks, buffs, ect make PBT completely useless. The designed 'weakness' is as outdated as this arguement.

    As for Valewalker; it is the same role as Thane and Heretic for ranged/melee Hybrids. Comparing them to Warden makes no sense.

    Using duels to measure the power of a class (Champion) is a really bad metric. They bring almost nothing to a group that isn't done in AoE by other classes in the group.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    @Samhayn Because the warden has access to melee styles (just like a friar) to peel and have melee dps options

    Warden in melee is about durability, can still use ML styles combined with abs debuff and do lot of dps.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a warden.

    I'd like to see @Brut logic and thought process behind his dual wield minstrel idea though.

    So, using ML styles is 'lot of dps'? Have you even leveled a warden? No one specs styles in warden because it is pointless to do so. Not out of strength of the other lines, but because of how little you can actually get out of it if you do. As in, those lines are so bad that the ML and CL styles are actually more effective. There is no way you can frame that fact that it isn't a problem.
  • Just shut this thread down
  • was wondering ---- the "warden bubble" earth thugs
  • was wondering -- the "warden bubble"
    earth thugs have it , which seems a bit of a waste--would be better on friars "_
    what toon on mid has it ??
  • null
    Friar staff is dex based and so is casting. So no its actually a buff to both healer and stick friars and makes its slightly easier to template and help with thier primary defenses dodge and parry.
  • 47el wrote: »
    was wondering -- the "warden bubble"
    earth thugs have it , which seems a bit of a waste--would be better on friars "_
    what toon on mid has it ??

    Earth Theurgs have it in Albion and they are rare because it isn't a good ability. Some might seconary spec Earth, but it isn't a must have.
    Runemasters have it in Mid.Also not very common. People only go Suppression for Nearsight as a secondary.

    PBT has been a joke for nearly a decade.

    If Celerity was so good, you would think there be a bunch of Minstrels running around, but you will see far more sorcs than Minstrels roaming bands.
  • edited April 22 PM
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Why should a warden, a healing hybrid, with PBT/celerity, be given the same melee dps as a valkyrie, the midgard melee-healer hybrid? Then Valkyrie should get something as well, no? Wardens are a staple of Hibernian groups, it's in the foundation. Valkyries do not serve the same role in groups as Wardens. So compare Warden to Friar, they seem pretty in-line. Not sure what you're asking for.

    Do you think hybrids should have no downside, just because theyre the combination of two separate roles? Do you think Warden has the same role(s) as a valkyrie? Hibernia already has Valewalker as their high-dps hybrid, Champions are pretty OP (for a while) in 1v1 scenarios, and if you remove the str growth on a friar, wouldn't their WS be, more trash?

    Why should a heretic be brought in line with Valkyrie melee? They already get insane dps on their ramping...

    You're asking for classes designed weaknesses to go away.

    If Warden needs to be brought up to parity with Valkyrie, then why is Valkyrie due anything? It's not like the Warden can have high DPS weapon spec -and- Healing -and- Celerity/Bubble. You have to sacrifice one for the other two, but there is zero advantage to going weapon spec. Valks give up nothing to do it all. Also, do people still exist that think PBT is actually something special? I can't even count the number of attacks, buffs, ect make PBT completely useless. The designed 'weakness' is as outdated as this arguement.

    As for Valewalker; it is the same role as Thane and Heretic for ranged/melee Hybrids. Comparing them to Warden makes no sense.

    Using duels to measure the power of a class (Champion) is a really bad metric. They bring almost nothing to a group that isn't done in AoE by other classes in the group.

    <smashes face into keyboard>

    Warden has far better group heals than a Valkyrie, so if you're going to bring up Warden DPS, Valkyrie healing needs to be increased. If you think your PBT in a group scenario is useless, you don't play in an 8v8/GvG scenario against tanks much. Go ahead and count all the buffs/attacks that make PBT useless, by the way. If you can't count them it's because you're not aware of the handful. You're asking for mirrored classes, go play ESO.

    Valewalker was also not compared to wardens, so re-read that section. Valkyrie is more like Valewalker than it is warden (Warden is a primary healer for Hibernia, also a peeler, whereas Valkyrie is at best the third healer in Midgard -- Healer and Warlock both offer better heals than a Valkyrie, while a Shaman has higher piety), as a Valkyrie is often used for their DPS/peeling capability than their healing capability, and a Valewalker is more DPS. So asking a Warden to be brought in line with a Valkyrie is, absolutely, silly. If they'd remove anything to add Celtic spear, it should be shield spec, but again, this idea is just silly as Warden is in a good place.

    Also champs are great to have on a hib tank train? Not sure why people think they don't bring any utility. Purple debuffs on an assist train, combined with ST and set bonus, they make a nice dps class. You also failed to address if you think Warden has the same role as a valkyrie, your suggestions have no basis and just seem like asking for mirrored classes. If you're advocating for a Champion group utility buff, then we have to buff Reavers as well (which I'm sure @Brut would like), but Champion is still in a good spot. Add the reduced amount of shear-able buffs in todays game as before, and the radius nerf on ML styles, the debuff value is slightly higher than it was before.

    Asking for Champion to get AoE debuffs just because Eldritch get aoe debuffs is another silly idea. Champions bring single target melee dps, which is their entire role, not AoE damage/debuffs.
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    47el wrote: »
    was wondering -- the "warden bubble"
    earth thugs have it , which seems a bit of a waste--would be better on friars "_
    what toon on mid has it ??

    Earth Theurgs have it in Albion and they are rare because it isn't a good ability. Some might seconary spec Earth, but it isn't a must have.
    Runemasters have it in Mid.Also not very common. People only go Suppression for Nearsight as a secondary.

    PBT has been a joke for nearly a decade.

    If Celerity was so good, you would think there be a bunch of Minstrels running around, but you will see far more sorcs than Minstrels roaming bands.


    el oh el

    Earth spec has the longest lasting pets, single target haste debuff, and do run PBT. If you're playing a thuerg without tri-spec, you're doing it wrong for group play.

    Every runie goes suppression sub-spec for nearsight and pbt, as there is absolutely zero synergy between RC and Darkness specs on the same runemaster (outside of 50% cold debuff for your baseline nuke, but again not Darkness spec), so Suppression is naturally the only decent choice for Runie subspec.

    Not many albs run tank trains either, just based on the pure strength of their extend groups.
    Post edited by Dale_Perf on
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    <smashes face into keyboard>

    Warden has far better group heals than a Valkyrie, so if you're going to bring up Warden DPS, Valkyrie healing needs to be increased. If you think your PBT in a group scenario is useless, you don't play in an 8v8/GvG scenario against tanks much. Go ahead and count all the buffs/attacks that make PBT useless, by the way. If you can't count them it's because you're not aware of the handful. You're asking for mirrored classes, go play ESO.
    You missed some keys ...

    <smashes his keyboard into his face>

    Yes, wardens get better heal values, but no insta-DDs or anything else the Valk has. We aren't talking about making Warden a melee powerhouse, we are talking about making Melee an attractive alternative to High Nurture and High Regrowth that, as a melee warden, would have to give up both in order to be any good at DPS. That fact alone completely undermines your argument that, somehow, the warden would magically be the same class they are now with DPS. It is not possible. Its still possible for Valks, however, because of all the specline damage they get. So maybe you are blinded by actual good hybrid classes to the fact that bad ones exist.

    It's like you are opposed to anyone that doesn't want to be a zero weapon skill, full regrowth/nurture, low parry warden that every warden is pigeon hold into because there is no other viable options. Like the very idea of a class that has to actually make choices between being able to heal, buff, or DPS doesn't exist in your world ... because no warden can be all three given any of what you are railing against.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Valkyrie is more like Valewalker than it is warden (Warden is a primary healer for Hibernia, also a peeler, whereas Valkyrie is at best the third healer in Midgard -- Healer and Warlock both offer better heals than a Valkyrie, while a Shaman has higher piety), as a Valkyrie is often used for their DPS/peeling capability than their healing capability, and a Valewalker is more DPS. So asking a Warden to be brought in line with a Valkyrie is, absolutely, silly. If they'd remove anything to add Celtic spear, it should be shield spec, but again, this idea is just silly as Warden is in a good place.
    Your opinion of a heal bot with no melee skill as in a good place is noted ... and rejected by someone that actually plays one. Valewalkers are a ranged dps/melee hybrid. They are nothing like Valks. They are like Thanes and Heretics in their role. Warden is supposed to be a melee/healer hybrid and the melee is so bad that people put ZERO into them and instead use ML and CL styles ... which isn't even unique to melee classes.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Also champs are great to have on a hib tank train? Not sure why people think they don't bring any utility. Purple debuffs on an assist train, combined with ST and set bonus, they make a nice dps class.
    Because Eldritch get the same purple debuffs in AoE and Mentalists get ST? There is nothing the champ brings to roaming groups that isn't better on other classes.

    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    You also failed to address if you think Warden has the same role as a valkyrie, your suggestions have no basis and just seem like asking for mirrored classes.
    Asking for Wardens to get Celtic Spear did not ask for instant DDs, Instant Cone DDs , buff shears, or any of the other crap you somehow stapled together with a simple request to have a choice between 1H/Shield and 2H/Parry builds for the non-existent melee warden. Seriously, the amount of time you dedicated and theory-crafting tangents you have gone on is amazing for something that doesn't do anything you think it does.

    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    If you're advocating for a Champion group utility buff
    Haven't done any such thing. I just noted that they aren't used in groups because all their abilities are found better in other classes.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Asking for Champion to get AoE debuffs just because Eldritch get aoe debuffs is another silly idea.
    Again, and argument of your own invention. Never said it because I don't play one, so I don't know what they need. All I know is that we don't take them for the reasons already listed.


    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    el oh el

    Earth spec has the longest lasting pets, single target haste debuff, and do run PBT. If you're playing a thuerg without tri-spec, you're doing it wrong for group play.
    Roaming is all Air Theurg. My alb guild know this, my hib guild knows this, my mid guild knows this. To the point where I have to question are you just trolling? I mean, its fine if you are, but wondering minds want to know.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Every runie goes suppression sub-spec for nearsight and pbt, as there is absolutely zero synergy between RC and Darkness specs on the same runemaster (outside of 50% cold debuff for your baseline nuke, but again not Darkness spec), so Suppression is naturally the only decent choice for Runie subspec.
    No, people spec Runecarving for Cold Debuff and then X into Darkness. If people put anything into Suppression it is nearsight alone. No one is doing it for PBT outside of PvE groups.
  • edited April 22 PM
    @Hawkwynd Before I read all your non-sense on wardens, I suppose you play one? How much blades spec do you have?

    Have you actually played a melee warden? Play one correctly and you hit those ML styles for 350/400 dmg per swing.

    Also, paladins get celerity. Don't need to run minstrels to get it. Celerity is useful in tank groups (and pretty much required)

    Pbt is not that great by itself. Combine it with red d)q debuff and 36+% haste debuff and you aren't going through pbt

    One of the strongest cloak for a tank is the armsman/valk pierce bt cloak. I suppose it's because bladeturm isn't that shitty of a spell.
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • all i said was it would be nice to have a 2h option on wardens, Celtic spear is an idea because its under utilized most heroes go large weapon and or revisit the 1h weapons and maybe add DD or Heal procs to the styles, something every other hybrid has, healing or not. Also if the weapon lines or 2h got implemented and you spent points in it your either going to get PBT or group celerity you would in no way have the points for both since the warden is a 1.8 skill point class. just looking now you could go 50 weapon (since if broad sword did changes they like to hide the good stuff at the end) 45 nurt for 6s pbt, 16 regrowth for 30% rez and 20 parry (this is assuming 2h with 1h you need to move points around to also spec shield)

    i personally do have a champ, they don't get groups and I really don't know why. sure people want them when we knock on doors but that's about it. its an underutilized class, all I pointed out was they get less hp and weapon skill then the other tanks. really its most likely the HP since they are kinda squish for a front line class. maybe having a bit more survivability would make them more appealing.
  • edited April 23 PM
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    <smashes face into keyboard>

    Warden has far better group heals than a Valkyrie, so if you're going to bring up Warden DPS, Valkyrie healing needs to be increased. If you think your PBT in a group scenario is useless, you don't play in an 8v8/GvG scenario against tanks much. Go ahead and count all the buffs/attacks that make PBT useless, by the way. If you can't count them it's because you're not aware of the handful. You're asking for mirrored classes, go play ESO.
    You missed some keys ...

    <smashes his keyboard into his face>

    Yes, wardens get better heal values, but no insta-DDs or anything else the Valk has. We aren't talking about making Warden a melee powerhouse, we are talking about making Melee an attractive alternative to High Nurture and High Regrowth that, as a melee warden, would have to give up both in order to be any good at DPS. That fact alone completely undermines your argument that, somehow, the warden would magically be the same class they are now with DPS. It is not possible. Its still possible for Valks, however, because of all the specline damage they get. So maybe you are blinded by actual good hybrid classes to the fact that bad ones exist.

    It's like you are opposed to anyone that doesn't want to be a zero weapon skill, full regrowth/nurture, low parry warden that every warden is pigeon hold into because there is no other viable options. Like the very idea of a class that has to actually make choices between being able to heal, buff, or DPS doesn't exist in your world ... because no warden can be all three given any of what you are railing against.

    Warden is a bad hybrid? They are one of the most durable hybrids out there, and hit hard enough when played properly. You chose to play a Warden, knowing their low dps table and reliance on style debuffs/buff shearing capability to do real damage. Wardens are a primary healer, upping their DPS still doesn't make any sense. Go ahead and implement your ideas, what's a hib setup now? Weaker than before? Whose going to take a melee warden over a champion, valewalker, blademaster, vampiir, or hero? Bard/Druid/Heal Ward/Melee ward? lol. It wouldn't make any sense in group comps.

    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Your opinion of a heal bot with no melee skill as in a good place is noted ... and rejected by someone that actually plays one. Valewalkers are a ranged dps/melee hybrid. They are nothing like Valks. They are like Thanes and Heretics in their role. Warden is supposed to be a melee/healer hybrid and the melee is so bad that people put ZERO into them and instead use ML and CL styles ... which isn't even unique to melee classes.

    You're allowed to have opinions.
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Because Eldritch get the same purple debuffs in AoE and Mentalists get ST? There is nothing the champ brings to roaming groups that isn't better on other classes.

    Because an Eldritch has both purple str con, purple dex qui in the same line? So now you need two Eldy's to match the champs debuff utility on a train...

    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Asking for Wardens to get Celtic Spear did not ask for instant DDs, Instant Cone DDs , buff shears, or any of the other crap you somehow stapled together with a simple request to have a choice between 1H/Shield and 2H/Parry builds for the non-existent melee warden. Seriously, the amount of time you dedicated and theory-crafting tangents you have gone on is amazing for something that doesn't do anything you think it does.

    I didn't say any of those things, although you do seem to be pretty agitated and defensive here.

    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    If you're advocating for a Champion group utility buff
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Haven't done any such thing. I just noted that they aren't used in groups because all their abilities are found better in other classes.

    oh ok
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Again, and argument of your own invention. Never said it because I don't play one, so I don't know what they need. All I know is that we don't take them for the reasons already listed.

    I thought you weren't advocating?



    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Roaming is all Air Theurg. My alb guild know this, my hib guild knows this, my mid guild knows this. To the point where I have to question are you just trolling? I mean, its fine if you are, but wondering minds want to know.

    lol, full air (cringes)
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Every runie goes suppression sub-spec for nearsight and pbt, as there is absolutely zero synergy between RC and Darkness specs on the same runemaster (outside of 50% cold debuff for your baseline nuke, but again not Darkness spec), so Suppression is naturally the only decent choice for Runie subspec.
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    No, people spec Runecarving for Cold Debuff and then X into Darkness. If people put anything into Suppression it is nearsight alone. No one is doing it for PBT outside of PvE groups.

    The fact you think that runies spec 47/48 RC for the 50% cold debuff and dump points into dark is one of the most laughable things I've read on this forum.
    Hawkwynd wrote: »
    To the point where I have to question are you just trolling? I mean, its fine if you are, but wondering minds want to know.

    You could save yourself by coming out as a troll, now :)
    Post edited by Dale_Perf on
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Tbh I think @Hawkwynd plays the classic/si shard and is posting on the wrong forums.

    @Samhayn Heroes spec LW more than spear? Are you euro running in hero zerg to see things like that?

    Champ doesn't get group... Are you specced for pin?

    Before the nerf bringing debuffs back from ae to single targets, champs were ridiculous and people still didn't run them. It's not because some ppl can't change their bias from 2004 that a class is bad.
  • null
    No I play est prime, most heros I see run LW I see 1 or 2 running spear.

    Also yeah people dont run champs in groups that's why when you look there maybe 7 champs total.on and of that 2 or 3 are 50 and in frontiers.
  • Right now 9pm est 5 champs. 2 of them 50 and in NF.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    Tbh I think @Hawkwynd plays the classic/si shard and is posting on the wrong forums.

    @Hawkwynd , do Wardens have shield spec?
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • edited April 23 PM
    Samhayn wrote: »
    Right now 9pm est 5 champs. 2 of them 50 and in NF.

    Yeah, I think these guys play that other shard and are on the wrong forums.
    Post edited by Hawkwynd on
  • edited April 23 PM
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Warden is a bad hybrid? They are one of the most durable hybrids out there, and hit hard enough when played properly.

    Ok, obviously you have never played warden in your life because no warden ever has said those words. Playing properly doesn't make you do any more damage with a warden. Also, if a warden has 0 in blade/blunt they are not a hybrid ... especially a melee one. That isn't a choice that wardens make , its the only viable spec which means its a design issue which actual warden players are looking to get addressed. Nothing we suggested would make the warden more powerful overall as you will have to sacrifice regrowth significantly to take up melee spec. So I really don't know what you are arguing about and as you are completely ignorant of wardens you don't know what you are arguing about either.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Because an Eldritch has both purple str con, purple dex qui in the same line? So now you need two Eldy's to match the champs debuff utility on a train...

    Only one that matters is Str/Con and elds usually have that one. Elds also have Purple Dex debuff. Champs bring nothing really that a roaming squad needs that they don't already have better in other classes.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    I didn't say any of those things, although you do seem to be pretty agitated and defensive here.

    You quite literally did when you said I just wanted to Mirror the Valk, which would REQUIRE me to state it. When you accuse someone of something know what you are saying. k?
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    The fact you think that runies spec 47/48 RC for the 50% cold debuff and dump points into dark is one of the most laughable things I've read on this forum.

    Eldritch and Enchanter spec the exact same way for the exact same reason. Do you even play this game?
    Post edited by Hawkwynd on
  • These suggestions are hilarious. Next up will be the Healers need a spec nuke argument, lol. I honestly hope BS implements all of these ideas. It may not be too late to get an instant kill button too.
  • Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Warden is a bad hybrid? They are one of the most durable hybrids out there, and hit hard enough when played properly.

    Ok, obviously you have never played warden in your life because no warden ever has said those words. Playing properly doesn't make you do any more damage with a warden. Also, if a warden has 0 in blade/blunt they are not a hybrid ... especially a melee one. That isn't a choice that wardens make , its the only viable spec which means its a design issue which actual warden players are looking to get addressed. Nothing we suggested would make the warden more powerful overall as you will have to sacrifice regrowth significantly to take up melee spec. So I really don't know what you are arguing about and as you are completely ignorant of wardens you don't know what you are arguing about either.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Because an Eldritch has both purple str con, purple dex qui in the same line? So now you need two Eldy's to match the champs debuff utility on a train...

    Only one that matters is Str/Con and elds usually have that one. Elds also have Purple Dex debuff. Champs bring nothing really that a roaming squad needs that they don't already have better in other classes.
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    I didn't say any of those things, although you do seem to be pretty agitated and defensive here.

    You quite literally did when you said I just wanted to Mirror the Valk, which would REQUIRE me to state it. When you accuse someone of something know what you are saying. k?
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    The fact you think that runies spec 47/48 RC for the 50% cold debuff and dump points into dark is one of the most laughable things I've read on this forum.

    Eldritch and Enchanter spec the exact same way for the exact same reason. Do you even play this game?



    So, to sum it up:

    - The only right way to spec a warden is with 0 blades (not even a little 10 blades for side snare)
    - red dex/qui debuff is useless
    - Darkcarver is still a spec people play

    You can stop trolling, we got it.
  • Hawkwynd wrote: »
    Playing properly doesn't make you do any more damage with a warden.

    :D


    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    [Warden] are one of the most durable hybrids out there, and hit hard enough when played properly.
    :D

    Shoke wrote: »
    - The only right way to spec a warden is with 0 blades (not even a little 10 blades for side snare)
    - red dex/qui debuff is useless
    - Darkcarver is still a spec people play

    You can stop trolling, we got it.
    red dex/qui doesn't do much in a roaming group where you are chain interrupting with AoE CC. Not as useful as the loss of Con from the red str/con buff.
    Self debuff is absolutely a spec caster play in large numbers. Rune, Eld, Chant, ect. Debuff + Base DD does more damage in RvR then my spec bolts in both midgard and hib.

    Yeah, tell me again how ~11 blades makes warden a melee hybrid? How much damage you do? 60? Especially since you are temping for 44 Reg/49 Nurture/23 Shield heal bot.

    That actually does less damage than the 35 Reg/49 Nurture/35 Shield/18 Parry BG/meee warden.

    I am still not getting the objecting to Celtic Spear. Please provide the spec you think is going to be uber healer with massive dps.

    29 CS / 44 Reg / 49 Nurture? Ok, great, you lost shield and parry entirely which hurts your defense significantly.
    39 CS / 7 Parry / 35 Reg / 49 Nurture? Not enough parry to make Talon chain viable. Healing has suffered.
    39 CS / 15 Parry / 32 Reg / 49 Nurture? Lost Instant Rez, Health Regen, Celerity
    39 CS / 15 Parry / 35 Reg / 47 Nurture? Lost Fury of Nature.
    39 CS / 24 Parry / 26 Reg / 49 Nurture? This one is where I would go, but so much for that healing power.
    50 CS / 17 Parry / 49 Nurture? Now that is a uber healer right there.

    No matter how you look at it, the Warden would lose defense, healing ,ect in order to actually do decent melee with CS which keeps it in balance.

    So , please, by all means, show me this killer spec you have in your brain that makes this not ok.
  • @Hawkwynd Care to explain what the problem is with a warden? That you aren't able to heal and do massive melee dps? Why can't my druid nuke for 700 dmg? Why can't my pac healer have a pet? Why can't my Armsman have heals? So many questions, so many opportunities to improve the game!

    Just curious, what are your hib/mid/alb guilds that think that

    double dex debuffing isn't required
    air theurgists are better than earth or tri spec theurgists
    Wardens should be BGers in a roaming group
  • Shoke wrote: »
    @Hawkwynd Care to explain what the problem is with a warden? That you aren't able to heal and do massive melee dps? Why can't my druid nuke for 700 dmg? Why can't my pac healer have a pet? Why can't my Armsman have heals? So many questions, so many opportunities to improve the game!

    Just curious, what are your hib/mid/alb guilds that think that

    double dex debuffing isn't required
    air theurgists are better than earth or tri spec theurgists
    Wardens should be BGers in a roaming group

    why shouldn't Wardens have a melee spec that is inline with other hybrid classes? besides, that they can spec for healing and be taken as a healer? every other hybrid class that get melee specs has either a 2h option or their styles have DD procs or both. Wardens get these added styles at 40 spec that cost a ton of endurance for some reason. Warden have always had the ability to spec into a weapon line and people have always had an excuse why it should be lack luster at best from you have pbt and you will always have buffs way back when the game started to today's reason of well people will take you as a healer with BG and peels, but that has never seemed to me to be a valid reason why if you choose to not spend points in other areas and instead put them in your weapon spec you should be getting less then other classes that are also hybrids. i get that you guys disagree with me and that's fine, we will disagree but I'm not going to stop making the argument that if a warden chooses to spec melee they should get around the same return on his/her points spent as other melee hybrids.
  • edited April 23 PM
    Samhayn wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    @Hawkwynd Care to explain what the problem is with a warden? That you aren't able to heal and do massive melee dps? Why can't my druid nuke for 700 dmg? Why can't my pac healer have a pet? Why can't my Armsman have heals? So many questions, so many opportunities to improve the game!

    Just curious, what are your hib/mid/alb guilds that think that

    double dex debuffing isn't required
    air theurgists are better than earth or tri spec theurgists
    Wardens should be BGers in a roaming group

    why shouldn't Wardens have a melee spec that is inline with other hybrid classes? besides, that they can spec for healing and be taken as a healer? every other hybrid class that get melee specs has either a 2h option or their styles have DD procs or both. Wardens get these added styles at 40 spec that cost a ton of endurance for some reason. Warden have always had the ability to spec into a weapon line and people have always had an excuse why it should be lack luster at best from you have pbt and you will always have buffs way back when the game started to today's reason of well people will take you as a healer with BG and peels, but that has never seemed to me to be a valid reason why if you choose to not spend points in other areas and instead put them in your weapon spec you should be getting less then other classes that are also hybrids. i get that you guys disagree with me and that's fine, we will disagree but I'm not going to stop making the argument that if a warden chooses to spec melee they should get around the same return on his/her points spent as other melee hybrids.

    What's preventing you from doing a 40 blades spec, getting the 50% ABS debuff off and spamming ML styles? Warden can spam ML styles day in day out with all his endo regens/buffs. You'll do really good dps and still have a shield.

    Also if you aren't high blades spec, please do your group a favor and go perfector.

    They kind of already adressed the warden lack of dps by adding that style, just need to use it.

    And why a hero would spec LW instead of spear is beyond me. Spear has like all the best styles and dps while having the option of a frozen thrust spear.
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • Saying someone has never played a warden because they actually know they can do damage if spec'd and templated properly is hilarious
  • LW over Spear for rear style snare/stun combo is my guess.

    40 blade style is ok. It's actually did help with damage. Even with end regen and reduce it still eats end thou. It also feels like a band aid for the style line. I look to friar staff as more of what a healer hybrid style line should look like, ae hot, ae heal and DD procs all on you weapon styles with out having to use super high end cost skills for short term buffs that actually allow you to hit near the damage other do. I'm not saying that a warden should do.more damage then they are currently capable of given a perfect scenario where you land your chain and still have endo left to land attacks in the 10s window (obviously a 2h weapon option would hit harder but then you give up shield so it's a trade off) I'm saying to revisit the weapon styles and maybe make that damage more consistent with DD procs and Maybe heal procs (heal procs in a tank train are nice) and bring the wardens weapon styles more inline with the modern design of other hybrids. So yeah maybe those 40 spec styles would go away, that's a trade off for having your damage be more consistent.
  • Saying someone has never played a warden because they actually know they can do damage if spec'd and templated properly is hilarious

    Not as hilarious as saying you have played warden and they can do damage.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    @Hawkwynd Care to explain what the problem is with a warden? That you aren't able to heal and do massive melee dps? Why can't my druid nuke for 700 dmg? Why can't my pac healer have a pet? Why can't my Armsman have heals? So many questions, so many opportunities to improve the game!

    Just curious, what are your hib/mid/alb guilds that think that

    double dex debuffing isn't required
    air theurgists are better than earth or tri spec theurgists
    Wardens should be BGers in a roaming group

    Armsman isn't advertised as a Melee/Heal hybrid? Druid isn't advertised as a Ranged DPS/Heal Hybrid? You seem to be going on all these great tangents and not answering the Q of what Celtic Spear spec is suddenly going to make the Warden overpowered compared to other hybrids. Please, provide numbers.
  • Samhayn wrote: »
    LW over Spear for rear style snare/stun combo is my guess.

    40 blade style is ok. It's actually did help with damage. Even with end regen and reduce it still eats end thou. It also feels like a band aid for the style line. I look to friar staff as more of what a healer hybrid style line should look like, ae hot, ae heal and DD procs all on you weapon styles with out having to use super high end cost skills for short term buffs that actually allow you to hit near the damage other do. I'm not saying that a warden should do.more damage then they are currently capable of given a perfect scenario where you land your chain and still have endo left to land attacks in the 10s window (obviously a 2h weapon option would hit harder but then you give up shield so it's a trade off) I'm saying to revisit the weapon styles and maybe make that damage more consistent with DD procs and Maybe heal procs (heal procs in a tank train are nice) and bring the wardens weapon styles more inline with the modern design of other hybrids. So yeah maybe those 40 spec styles would go away, that's a trade off for having your damage be more consistent.

    So you're saying the 50% ABS debuff style is a band aid but giving wardens Celtic spear isn't? The warden class is built on turtleing with your shield, pbt + other chants, loyal cloak, MoB and grind away. That's the design of the class if you want to melee on it.

    A friar doesn't have access to pbt and a shield, so it needs a bit more dps, that's why the styles have the dd procs on them. They are also positionals, so they do need a bit of skill to land. Warden is just face tank spam anytime (!!) 50% ABS debuff and spam anytime (!!) ML styles. Can't get easier than that. If you get in trouble, you can stun, snare, run away and heal up.

    Celtic spear has two 20+ second snares (side and back) and a side chain that has two high GR styles. To think LW is better than CS is just mind blowing.

    Champs were nerfed because they were completely OP. Think about a ae DQ debuff with 25% debuff bonus in template, dumping Zone of Unmana on top on caster groups.

    They still get pin which is extremely strong, they just aren't OP. However Pin isn't that great in zergs, which I believe is the primary format you play in.
  • I only said 2h out as an option.

    Uhmm friar holy staff/excommunicat is any time with a 50pt hot and a dd+aoe heal.

    My champ is 50 lw/ 50 valor, I use instant snare or side style or rear style stun for peeling. I also only run with the zerg if nothing else is going on, I try to avoid it since they only want one Champ for buff and running siege. After they get one it's hard to get grouped in the zerg. Dont known why but that's how it plays out.

    So really going back and revamping the melee spec to be more inline with other hybrids isnt an issue as long as the warden stays defensive, but it would be since it doesnt have any direct damage shouts or debuffs (reaver valk tick thane) or DD castable spells (tick VW thane) nor does it get insta heals (valk paladin)

    That's why I compare with friar so much, warden get pbt and shield, friar get high evade and parry (from parry buff and high dex). If you look at Friar staff you can see how its changed to be more inline with other hybrids with DD procs on attacks, they also get group hot and aoe heals on attacks
  • I'm just saying it would be nice to have wardens melee styles also gone over and be brought more inline with that design philosophy. Is that really a big ask?
  • Minstrels duel wield 2020
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