Realm Timers + Draft Fights
Hi. Me again. Talking again about realm timers. Obviously it is my opinion that realm timers are the most absurd feature with today's population. People now just straight up log off or quit instead of waiting which is messing with what little population we already have. But I get it zergers/ realm loyalists dont want people to log into the opposing realm and defend keeps or relics. Fine, whatever. But can their be some smart solve here for the community that wants to do draft fights? Anything at all if BS completely refuses to remove timers?
Now whether or not you agree with what I have said so far please read on....
A little background on draft fights if you are unfamiliar. 8V8 players that want to do setup fights and create a more equal playing field will do draft fights. They can be 8v8 7v7 5v5 w/e depending on how many players you can get. You pick two team captains, they /roll. The highest roller gets to make a choice - the first player they want on their team or the realm they want to play. After that the second captain picks the realm they want to play and their first player. Then back to the first captain for player choice, then back to the second and so on and so forth until all players are picked. You all boot up, do best of 3 or best of 5 fights (nowdays 5 because realm timers). After you redraft. New captains, swap the teams and realm up. This redraft creates a level playing field if one group is steam rolling over another group.
Lately there has been no action during usa prime time except zerging and obviously realm timers strongly support and enforce this type of action. I get it, most players nowadays are zergers but there are still a lot of players in the community that want to 8v8 so we have been hosting drafts and setting up fights on EV. During this time it has been suuuuper terrible when we redraft the teams and all 16 players need to wait 15 minutes. Can we have an island or something for draft fights where you don't get a timer? Zergs could avoid it and continue to circle the island or pve keeps if they are worried about these skilled "cross realming" players logging into an opposing realm. Or zergs could even steam roll people down on it if they want. I don't care as long as you don't get a realm timer for receiving rps on this island that way those players can redraft after without waiting.
Or hell, I would even take if we had to all /rp off and draft but apparently getting bounty points from a kill ALSO gives you realm timer... While I don't think /rp off is fair by any means can we still make this a solve in the meantime for draft fights?
I can't think of a reason realm timer enthusiasts or anyone would have a problem with this island idea. But maybe I'm not thinking of something? Why do we have realm timers? Because BS did not like the type of play style it created. What type is that? People logging into another realm to defend a keep on another realm they weren't on... or players log onto another realm to kill enemies that were on the realm they were just on, right? So they can just avoid this new island and continue to rvr in keeps, ev towers, or anywhere else, right?
Let me know what you guys think or if I am missing something here and why this wouldn't be a good idea. Thanks!
Now whether or not you agree with what I have said so far please read on....
A little background on draft fights if you are unfamiliar. 8V8 players that want to do setup fights and create a more equal playing field will do draft fights. They can be 8v8 7v7 5v5 w/e depending on how many players you can get. You pick two team captains, they /roll. The highest roller gets to make a choice - the first player they want on their team or the realm they want to play. After that the second captain picks the realm they want to play and their first player. Then back to the first captain for player choice, then back to the second and so on and so forth until all players are picked. You all boot up, do best of 3 or best of 5 fights (nowdays 5 because realm timers). After you redraft. New captains, swap the teams and realm up. This redraft creates a level playing field if one group is steam rolling over another group.
Lately there has been no action during usa prime time except zerging and obviously realm timers strongly support and enforce this type of action. I get it, most players nowadays are zergers but there are still a lot of players in the community that want to 8v8 so we have been hosting drafts and setting up fights on EV. During this time it has been suuuuper terrible when we redraft the teams and all 16 players need to wait 15 minutes. Can we have an island or something for draft fights where you don't get a timer? Zergs could avoid it and continue to circle the island or pve keeps if they are worried about these skilled "cross realming" players logging into an opposing realm. Or zergs could even steam roll people down on it if they want. I don't care as long as you don't get a realm timer for receiving rps on this island that way those players can redraft after without waiting.
Or hell, I would even take if we had to all /rp off and draft but apparently getting bounty points from a kill ALSO gives you realm timer... While I don't think /rp off is fair by any means can we still make this a solve in the meantime for draft fights?
I can't think of a reason realm timer enthusiasts or anyone would have a problem with this island idea. But maybe I'm not thinking of something? Why do we have realm timers? Because BS did not like the type of play style it created. What type is that? People logging into another realm to defend a keep on another realm they weren't on... or players log onto another realm to kill enemies that were on the realm they were just on, right? So they can just avoid this new island and continue to rvr in keeps, ev towers, or anywhere else, right?
Let me know what you guys think or if I am missing something here and why this wouldn't be a good idea. Thanks!
Comments
Corpseshovel - Oldstanky - Nogvi
The reason people hate to PvP is they are afraid of failure
I understand OP's frustration, but there has to be a win-win for both sides out there somewhere
There should be absolutely no solo players in the area. You must be in a grp of 5-8 in order to play. Do not allow players to disband, if they disband and the grp falls below 5 players, the disbanded player and the grp under 5 should be immediately teleported back to their bind point.
Corpseshovel - Oldstanky - Nogvi
The reason people hate to PvP is they are afraid of failure
There are no instances for special grp sizes in daoc.
Has always been. This would only reduce population in frontiers which is no good idea.
I think the best way for BS to approach these kind of requests is to experiment, and right now with the Covid situation they have the highest pop playing since the last 2-3 years. They should take advantage of that situation.
You have few options in NF right now. You can join the zerg and try kill whatever you see in sight, or you can form an 8-man and do your best to hold your own. Too often, people log because they don't want to participate in a 50 v 3 fight. In the end, what's so fun about getting one nuke off on someone to only earn a few hundred RP every few minutes? I'm sure you can do better farming doppels.
Many of the people who stick around in DAoC enjoy a good fight. I don't see the satisfaction of running around aimlessly taking towers and sieging keeps, only to then call it a night after your zerg gets wiped.
Those against it don't realize that when you're doing drafts, you're not out to find people along the way to kill. You are simply going from point a to point b, to then fight a few times and re-draft. If we're all on one realm when we decide, we have to wait 15 minutes to move to another realm, then spend a few minutes coordinating the group, then add 30-45 minutes of fights, and now you're about an hour or so invested in 3-5 fights.
We want to enjoy the game just as much as everyone else. We know this isn't the way DAoC was intended to be played at launch, but to have your only real option to zerg or be zerg'd at this point is pure ca-ca.
Lmao
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4505 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
In bold represents 95% of current daoc's player base.
But it isn't everyone. I refuse to believe that all 8v8 players left the game to go 8v8 elsewhere. That just isn't true. People still want to and we have been seeing great interest in these late night drafts. People want to 8v8 and draft on ywain. We have been able to setup drafts for like the past 10 years without an issue until realm timers.
@John_Broadsword isn't there some smart solve here to keep 8v8ers and people that want to setup fights on ywain? I see the easiest being remove or reduce realm timers (which I highly doubt will happen) or allow /rp off to not get a realm timer when killing a player (which I think is completely unfair to not allow 8v8 players earn rps for setting up fights). Can you help solve this very real issue?
The second one is to allow drafts to occur by finding a way to go around the realm timer. Hopefully BS proposes solutions to both.
In my opinion #2 is just the removal of realm timers entirely and solve that realm swapping issue with a malus associated to keeps (take massive damage if within 3,000 range of a flaming keep for 30 minutes after swapping realms, etc)
But there should not be a special area for a special playstyle. This was always the argument.
No one supports solo areas. So there cant be special areas for 8v8 or anything else.
And if a player knows when they need to log, and their replacement is on another realm, they can't just be given a 15 min heads up?
Sounds like, if what you say is true, that a lot of people want to 8v8, you could make it happen on your own without relying on @John_Broadsword or @Carol_Broadsword
You, off course, pick places with low traffic like Ella. . .Forest Sauvage?
You, off course, do the 1st round in Discord before you start?
As for 8v8, I prefer it. . .but you are the very people to blame for the lack of it. What have you done to bring in more 8v8ers? When is the last time you ran with 2 people in you're group that you didn't know? People think you cheat because you don't bother teaching anyone what it takes to get better. Don't challenge yourselves by putting 16 people in a box, do it by leading a PUG 8 man. . .and help them become good 8v8ers.
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4505 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
There are some that like the smaller scale fights. However, right now you get zero RPs if you get rolled by a better 8 man. The likelyhood of an average/bad 8 man on killing one player from a good 8 man is relatively zero.
So you can spend your night going out as 8 and the only RPs they would get is killing soloers/smallman. At the opposite, you can sit in a flamed keep, get a couple kills, and end up with 100k RPs.
That's why there is a requirement for Broadsword to come up with incentives for players to run 8/smallman. Once you get that in place, there will be more groups running, and the drafts/set fights will be more present.
Also, it's not because you run 8 man that you necessarily like set fights. Set fights are nice because you get a clean (usually no add) fight against another well set up group. However they do get repetitive and you miss the "roaming" part of running 8.
One idea would be for players usually in "set" groups to pug more. However, why would I pug a stranger, probably lose most of my fights, get zero RPs for my evening? I would rather stick to the people I know and do well with? People talk about an investment, but at least if we got RPs even when losing people would do that more often.
My 2 cents.
My point being that if there are people that want to 8v8, as much as xuu is claiming here, why this can't be setup via discord. Exactly what xuu is saying has been taken away from them (ease of setting up draft fights) could be done through discord.
But to solve the problem... make an /8v8 command.
group leader types /8v8 list -- group is on a clean fight 8v8 list;
once you list your group, your groups zone is shown on the 8v8 list
the only other players that can see the 8v8 list, are players in those listed 8v8 groups
after the fight, both group leaders can type /8v8 claim if they deem it was a "clean fight" and all 16 players are awarden 1k rps.
And I wonder where you took inspiration for the GvG command and reward. Having people show their locations through a /8v8 or /gvg command would be awesome.
NF map is too big, we need tools to help action.
I've been saying for a while we are trying to hold up a system not designed for us. NF was designed to have about 1,500 players on the map. I don't think we have the resources to make NF 3.0, so change it up. Allow porting to any keep you own etc etc.
As far as a redraft, again IDK why we don't set it all up in discord. If there's enough people like xuu claims there is, I don't see why it's an issue to fill one or two slots when somebody else needs to log. Unless, of course, they're not trying to group anybody that wants to 8v8, just their friends.
Ya my point being they are making no efforts to change how they do things within the design of the game. You don't need to change teams/redraft every 3-5 fights if somebody dips out just fill them with the people waiting in line. If one group is just getting dominated from the start, maybe they should look at whoever is organizing it to determine if they were put at a disadvantage, whether it be on purpose or not. If there's enough of an 8v8 pop, like xuu claims, i dont see why this can't happen on its own. The incentive for 8v8 is rps, as the rate is way better killing in an 8 than an 80 man group...
But I don't believe there is enough of an 8man crowd, like xuu claims, that want to do it. hence the struggle. If there's people that actually want to 8v8 on ywain, then fill the groups up...
ie
-monday - 2-3 hours before primetime
-8v8 discord draft channel: drafting in 1 hour for tonights rvr, drop name in channel to be in the draft
-discord random 1000 bot (similar things exist) to pick teams
-two, three, or 4 8mans are formed for the night.
-waitlist is formed for those that didnt get drafted/arrived late. these players will be given a 15-20 minute heads up when a spot will be free and what the group needs. first come first serve basis for waitlist players (like free agents)
- each team jumps in a separate channel in discord, or diff discord
-setup fights in low traffic areas. say there are three groups. g1 and g2 agree to set fight at mid maze, g3 agrees to roam ev waiting to get pinged that the next group is rdy to fight at hib maze. rotate the mazes so less likely fights get added by randos. or any 3 spots on the map tbh
the main issue they are having is a re-draft.....
if theres enough ppl doing 8mans like xuu claims, why do we need to switch realms all night to 8v8? seems like this 8v8 community can come together and work something like this out, because the 8v8 community is a bunch of nice guys that are inclusive and will help bring in all the people that want to 8v8
oh wait
It's not as bad as soloing, but the RPs can be extremely good while they can also be really bad, depends on the performance of the group.
The issue is not for the top groups, it's to help the newer/not as good groups not quit after one day of getting rolled over and getting no RPs.
Also, inherent to drafting is that you don't necessarily know everyone and what they are good at. Also not everyone has every class templated. You'll draft a good player just to realize that that person only has a staff friar on alb or something like that.
That's why it happens that some drafts are completely one sided and a redraft is needed every 3-5 fights.
In a 80 man group, sit 15 minutes in a large keep defense and bam you made 50k of free rps
IRC and the other "8 mans" abused the realms and RvR for so very long that they actually affected EVERY OTHER ACTIVE PLAYERS gameplay. Therefore they enacted the realm timers.
If anything they should INCREASE the realm timers in duration not decrease...
https://divoxutils.com/users/user_2ZTPHy8tjVF9LWMgujSZfCY9Mos/characters
"In a 80 man group, sit 15 minutes in a large keep defense and bam you made 50k of free rps"
No, no, no. . .it's a quick 50k RPs if YOUR high RR, preset, played together for 5 years, no random people in discord for at least a decade group adds to a pug zerg vs pug zerg fight at a keep. The rest of us who run 8 and speak 3 different languages in Teamspeak while listening to perpetually open mikers with mechanical keyboard make slightly less.
You are a little bit exagerating. Not eveyone drafting is R11+ and good. Some people get stuck on classes they never play or is very low rank just because of how the teams are built. A fight will last between 1 and 5 minutes usually, and then it can take like 10-15 minutes before the second fight happens, just between releasing, buffing, porting, getting chased by a zerg hungry for RPs, etc.
So let's say the fights are really unbalanced, then you redraft and lose about 30-40 minutes just in that process. So it's not really RP farming, you switch characters all the time, don't really make a lot of RPs, it's mainly for fun.
The timer was a cheap solution to a zerger problem. The only players affected negatively by this timers are players looking for smaller scale fights (solo, smallmen, 8 man). There was a million other solutions that would specifically solve the zerg relic swap issue, but people can't think outside the box and just kept sasking for timers.
One reason (of many) why a huge portion of the server population sticks to zerging, it's just better RPs when they aren't as good or coordinated as the better groups. However, if you had an incentive to run as 8 instead of sticking a zerg, maybe a couple groups would break off and roam, with the possibility of still making a couple RPs.
If people could recognize that you tried and put up a good fight, you should be rewarded for that.
I'm not saying all zergs will turn into 8-man, there are a lot of players in the zerg that like that playstyle, the big battles, keeps, etc.
Sometimes you find some other groups roaming, beat them, then right away they are back in the zerg, looking for the next defense bonus RPs.
This, 100%.
I've only drafted a few times with some of the late night people, but every experience has been wicked fun.
Why?
You have to work with what you got. Not every group is going to be absolutely perfect and built 100%. You learn a character you may not have played for a few years and how they can work within a group. Not to mention, you meet new players which can open you up to new groups and such.
There's no RP abuse or anything along those lines. You're lucky if you walk away with 10k RP after a 5v5 since many of us are only playing toons that are less than RR8. You could make more RP farming doppels in the amount of time it takes to wait on timers, form a group, and get 3-5 fights in.
Simple, we're just trying to have fun without waiting around.
My point being, if there are enough people that want to 8man, you're not going to be solely focusing on a scenario where theres only 16 people that want to 8v8 and those groups are just going to keep smashing into each other over and over and over. We are seriously debating a game mechanic so it can benefit 20 players. lol.
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4505 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
@Dale_Perf you clearly do not understand nor have ever drafted. It isn't about people needing to log or wanting to log. The redraft is to let new captains lead, swap up the cru among the 16, try new setups, new realms. diff ppl on diff classes... It's fun, competitive, you make new friends, and learn new strats and tactics for RvR. If I wanted to farm 8mans all day and night I would just stick with my set group but this is a way to create a bigger pool of 8v8 players. When I say 8v8 I do not mean the 28v8 RvR that you are used to. It is a different type of play style that is as old as daoc. You just aren't aware of it... yet! Join us
Draft night tonight! Everyone get ready for a lot of afk in relic town. Learn more and tune in to the twitch stream.
All I hear is "we have failed to adapt to the new way of things and demand you return it to the way it was before so we can do our way of rvr for our group of 20 people."
You might be on the wrong server to 8v8 though, I hear Pendragon is where it's at
I'm on the only server I want to be on...
That’s dumb.
Drafts are really fun. But they are not gonna change realm timers to accommodate them.
Da fly family - 4501 4502 4503 4504 4505 4506 4508 4509
Da spider family - 441 442 443 444 445 447
Ywain 1 Mid - Carlingford Hib - Tullamore Alb - Dalton
https://divoxutils.com/user-characters
So thats a 3% revanue increase for BS
https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/aufnymf
Twitch Youtube Mixer
- deactivate all chats for 15 minutes after log out from a realm (PMs too).
- Put a debuff on characters swapping realms for 15 minutes that makes them take big damage when near a flaming keep.
Everyone would be happy playing this beautiful game.
^^^ WTF! This would literally be a perfect solve that addresses everything and would keep everyone happy with why they were implemented... Can this be so hard to develop to keep 8v8 alive in daoc 2020?? @John_Broadsword
Really fun fights.
First set:
1st fight: 25 min mark, Hibs win
2nd fights: 35 min mark, Hibs win
3rd fights: 48 min mark, Hibs win
Second set:
1st fight:1:23 min mark, Mids win
2nd fight: 1:36 min mark, Hibs win
3rd fight: 1:47 min mark, Hibs win
4th fight: 2:02 min mark, Mids win
Second video
5th fight: 5 min mark, Hibs win
Third set:
1st fight: 53 min mark, Hibs win
2nd fight 1:07 min mark, Hibs win
3rd fight 1:22 min mark, Hibs win
Please do. Can we get a DOG circa 2001 revamp?
Or our children can carry the torch
https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/aufnymf
Twitch Youtube Mixer
I think i've mentionned that solution ever since they announced realm timers.
The biggest thing that bugs me is that all the pro realm timers haven't been able to provide constrictive criticism in the hopes of finding a common agreement, it's just 100% hate from them for some reason.
That's totally what is happening
Look to the classic server cluster. When it was three separate servers, all with realm timers. It was designed this way because DAoC has won awards for its REALM vs REALM warfare, it's in the base design of the game. This way, classic players who wanted to experience all three realms could do so, without "hopping realms." Look back further, and you see that each server, your realm was locked in also. But you were free to play the other realms on other servers.
When DAoC thrived, it was with realm timers and with realm locks. Granted, it also had a much better population in those days. You could make the argument, that a game longstanding on realm timers and locks, needs to evolve and adapt to it's current players needs. For the devs to do this, would be the exact opposite of their entire marketing strategy, selling complex, three-way realm vs realm fights.
However realm timers work when 80% of the games subs support the idea. Forget actual player numbers. I would probably say that maybe close to 60% of the games subs support the idea today, as more and more have left, while the hardcore players have stayed. So devs really have two choices here: move forward as a pvp game, or rvr game. If this is going to be a more pvp-focused game, alot of things need to be changed. New Frontiers is a terrible map for PvPers, and certain people on the underdog realm, or always losing relics, will be at a disadvantage to other groups just because of the lack of RvR players.
In my opinion, there should be an 8vs8vs8 arena, totally absent of relic/realm benefits/restrictions (including realm timer). Once in the arena, you are no longer able to port into New Frontiers for 4 hours on your account -- any realm. Zergers are tired of set groups killing their few PUG groups, and a niche PvP population is happy.
Who knows, maybe 8v8 pop will grow. But there are significantly more subs interested in a classic, realm lock/timer, SI/housing server than what YWAIN currently is or ever will be. That said, a lot of other things would need to be addressed to maintain the population of said server over a long period of time, but none of those are relevant to this topic.