Food for thought.

There has been a bit of discussion on the server about players being spammed with endless group heals over and through walls. There has been discussion about the Los or lack of it for spam healing that creates situations where your only choice becomes seeking out the hidden healer class and knocking them down first.

This issue is probably related more to power creep than anything else. Mana Regen is so fast, that spamming group heals endlessly is entirely possible. I don't think this was a design intention of the original programmers. I want to suggest a simple fix, that could solve a couple of problems:

Up the cost to cast group heals across the board. It makes spamming a danger to Mana reserves, and it gives power Regen classes a new necessity in groups. It could also have the intended side effect of making battles a bit more strategic. Feel free to discuss.

Comments

  • edited March 9 PM
    when i played the previous freeshard i was painfully reminded about how fast any caster would run out of power (or mellee to run out of end). power regain evolution over the years has made some classes way more effective than they have ever been (cough, vamps, cough) and they were intended to be. a long time time ago you could powerdrain a vamp and make him unable to perma claw. hell back in the day, a vamp couldn't even get all his buffs up at the same time. now they can have everything up, claw permanently and get powerdrained non stop if they have the right template.
    Post edited by Muylae on
    Vicomtessa Muylasav, wildly swinging arms around. Vicomte Muylock, calling curses on enemies. Lord Muylaetrix, calling upon winter storms. some other chars with names starting with Muyl.
  • Been saying for a long time that healing is out of contro.These two posts kinda confirm that indeed healing in the game is out of control once upon a time only 2 classes could basically heal and heal well now on any realm most classes have forms of heals whether procs rr abilitys or added spells to the class.
    Healing definetly neeeds toning down.
  • Vamps op as of 3/9/2019 O.o
  • While I understand why and how we got to this, consider the unintended consequences: My main is a minstrel. Ridiculously high power regen from armor/items is over double what power song provides, making it essentially useless.

    Add In that every player in some way has access to Max movement speed in a solo setting. Health Regen song. is a joke. With no damage capability and no heal capability and sub par crowd control, the utility of a minstrel in groups starts to drop low enough, that no one feels compelled to play them.

    Playing a Minny is an art. I don't think they should have top end damage heals or crowd control, they weren't conceived that way. But this kind of creep has slowly stripped a lot of their utility away and relegated them to siege breaker status. I'm sure these kind of examples apply across the board with further consequences such as making keep guards a joke. (They really need to raise the level of guards, but that's another discussion)
  • edited March 9 PM
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    Playing a Minny is an art. I don't think they should have top end damage heals or crowd control, they weren't conceived that way. But this kind of creep has slowly stripped a lot of their utility away and relegated them to siege breaker status. I'm sure these kind of examples apply across the board with further consequences such as making keep guards a joke. (They really need to raise the level of guards, but that's another discussion)

    Yea "they" stripped from the Minstrel and gave to the OP'd AF Sorc in Albion. Sorc's have their cake and get to eat it too, but that's what 'rebalance' gets you in 2K19. Sorc's can also group port (master level ability). If it wasn't for Siege buff only thing a minstrel would offer is interrupts + SOS.

    GL
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • Well played Ministrels rape in a group setting.
  • I’d be in favor of not so much a full rebalancing or whatever but maybe a minor scaling down of the power creep and amount of healing being handed out in very small increments until it feels like we hit the mark.
  • Agreed with creeper if you know how to play a minstrel in a group you dominate unfortunetly most people play minstrels rather timidly in groups
  • edited March 9 PM
    Brut wrote: »
    Agreed with creeper if you know how to play a minstrel in a group you dominate unfortunetly most people play minstrels rather timidly in groups

    Agreed, but no need when you have a sorc, as the minstrel is one of the lower DPS classes. Theurgists are better interrupts
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • Witchcraft spec'd warlocks can spam group heal endlessly without using power at all. Hide em out of sight and just hold down the heal button while you watch tv.
  • secrets out Midgard can slam heals costing no power any chance @beibhinn can take a look at this? *cough*
  • Spoken like a true Alb
  • Creaper wrote: »
    Well played Ministrels rape in a group setting.

    Truth. We run one in our 8man every night.
    Asatruar
  • Jadedgrace wrote: »
    There has been a bit of discussion on the server about players being spammed with endless group heals
    Where and w/whom was this discussion?
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    spamming group heals endlessly is entirely possible. I don't think this was a design intention of the original programmers.
    snn / perhaps so, yes.
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    simple fix, that could solve a couple of problems:
    is something broken?

  • Substrate wrote: »
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    There has been a bit of discussion on the server about players being spammed with endless group heals
    Where and w/whom was this discussion?
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    spamming group heals endlessly is entirely possible. I don't think this was a design intention of the original programmers.
    snn / perhaps so, yes.
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    simple fix, that could solve a couple of problems:
    is something broken?

    Mainly the fact that Hero zerg attacks keeps then climbs over the walls with Hero's and Vampiirs. That combined with the fact that most Hibs will roll with a Bard/Druid/Warden makes it difficult to defend as they are perma healed.
  • edited March 10 PM
    Only issue I see is being able to spam spreadheal. Either increase its power cost or make disease effective against it. All other heals can be countered with disease + an assist train. I ran with the Alb EU BG yesterday and can say they are sorely lacking the latter.

    Edit: spelling
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
  • Only issue I see is being able to spam spreadheal. Either increase its power cost or make disease effective against it. All other heals can be countered with disease + an assist train. I ran with the Alb EU BG yesterday and can say they are sorely lacking the latter.

    Edit: spelling

    Thanks for the rational comment. Was beginning to think the whole thread was going to ignore mechanics.

    To the OP, when we talk about "group heals", there are a variety of heals we can discuss.

    1) baseline group heals. (2.0 speed) With decent power regen these can definitely be perma spammed. However, I dispute that this can be exploited, as pretty much anything can eat through these without even disease.

    2) lower level spec group heals. Good templates/ra setups with POM can still possibly perma spam group heals. However, as these aren't 2.0 speed, the heals per second still aren't all that great.

    3) high level spec group heals. 2.0 speed. These can pump out some serious heals per second especially with full mastery of heal, heal buff charge/spell, and 25% heal buff in temp. However if you want to cap speed you need 392 dex, which gimps you elsewhere. Even if you get that, it's basically impossible to perma cast this spell. With a high HIGH and uber gimped elsewhere template in like the 75% power pool range+syphon items and full power regen items, with a FOP, one can definitely spam group heals of this nature for a 30-45 second push, maybe having to use a power refresh charge and pot in there as well. Still, it's not sustainable, and as soon as your group is diseased, your output plummets.

    4) Specialty group heals- ie warlock. Decent (not as good as a full spec healer given lack of group instas, etc), but heals for less per second. If a lock wants to use the powerless heal, the spell cast is significantly longer, and the heal per second is close to on par with baseline group heals in heals/sec.

    5) Spreads. This is where the bread and butter is for out of LOS heals. There's a reason it doesn't provide RPS for heals. Higher versions will definitely get you out of power quickly, but while a maxed level 46 group heal might heal everyone for 600, level 49 spread could heal your entire group for 1500 (approximations). Most people use the level 39 spread, which still can heal everyone for a lot more than 600, and which costs a more reasonable amount of power.... and of course heals through disease.

    If Broadsword were to change anything, I'd suggest increasing the power cost for spreads if nobody needed healing, sort of inverse to the way ST heals work now where if they don't need healing you don't use as much power.

  • Fateboi wrote: »
    Substrate wrote: »
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    There has been a bit of discussion on the server about players being spammed with endless group heals
    Where and w/whom was this discussion?
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    spamming group heals endlessly is entirely possible. I don't think this was a design intention of the original programmers.
    snn / perhaps so, yes.
    Jadedgrace wrote: »
    simple fix, that could solve a couple of problems:
    is something broken?

    Mainly the fact that Hero zerg attacks keeps then climbs over the walls with Hero's and Vampiirs. That combined with the fact that most Hibs will roll with a Bard/Druid/Warden makes it difficult to defend as they are perma healed.

    Ah yes; agree on that. Believe that's more of a tanks shouldn't be able to climb walls issue:
    https://forum.darkageofcamelot.com/discussion/2308/savage-wall-climb-reevaluated#latest
    Muylae wrote: »
    i agree that the classes with the heaviest armour make no sense to climb walls. i mean people in plate or chain climbing a wall, the idea is ridiculous.

  • Its just too easy now for a lot of support to gather under walls and spam group/spread heals with limited danger. I miss the old style murder holes in keep defence where you could actually nuke people right underneath you.
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