Returning player assessment

Prior active dates: Spring of launch 02' to launch of classic servers vicinity 05 or maybe 06

Bottom line up front:

If you enjoy PvE, then the game still has a lot to offer you in ways of working as a team to accomplish a goal. Low population may be a challenge, because most people won't be actually playing a new character, but simply power leveling it in some way instead.
If your goal is to RvR, however, then you are probably in for disappointment, depending on the type of char and style you like to play.

PvE: The good
- The ability to level a character to 50 has been improved immensely. Hardcore power leveling can create a 50 in a weekend or faster. Solo players can use quests and such to level a char to 50 in maybe a week? Two?
- Transportation around the realms has improved due to the use of channelers and hasteners scattered around in the various towns.
- The ability to obtain cash and equipment for temps has improved. This is largely due to the Otherworld and Curse quest series, however there are other ways players can obtain items and cash, such as ToA bounty quests and bounty crafting.
- Bounty crafting is an excellent solution to obtain high value kit for templates.
- The ability to buy ML's, CL exp, and artifacts with BP's is an excellent option.

The bad
- Many broken and / or buggy quest lines.
- Loot and item tables haven't been adjusted throughout the realms, creating a bottleneck of players trying to farm the same spots for current gear, and being rewarded with garbage for venturing into once "epic" dungeons and other non-adjusted areas.
- Most high level RoG items can no longer be used by lower level characters making them worthless for anything but salvage.
- Pathing issues for pets abound and make some places practically unplayable, like PoC or Galla.

RvR: The good
- The "looking for group" feature is nice.
- Quests in the frontiers offer opportunity for players during off peak hours.
- It's still possible to have fun in a "pick up group" for small scale, or in a zerg. POSSIBLE being the key word.
- Support classes have new tools that help them do their jobs more effectively, so players that like support characters should enjoy the RvR environment.
- Casters also have been given more tools to help them survive and cast.

The bad
- Melee characters of all types have had their damage nerfed by greater resists and ablatives, by a greater access to stealth lore and stealth lore buffs, and the destruction of archery in favor of "magic" damage instead.
- Tanks are tougher to kill, but easier to escape from due to greater CC options available, and the many ablatives that reduce or outright eliminate their damage.
- Archery damage is largely ineffective for anything but interupts and PvE due to ablatives and resists. This leads to the need for archers to form stealth zergs in order to be effective.
- Stealth zergs by assassins are largely a product of additional stealth lore options for vis chars, and the reduction of melee damage effectiveness.
- Player population is low and peaks twice a day with the formation of zerging battle groups that make doing anything other than joining the zerg largely unprofitable and unrewarding.
- Cross realming players have a negative impact on RvR by generally bolstering the side with the higher numbers, instead of assisting the underdogs for RP bonuses.
- Realm rank disparity leaves little options for new players / characters other than to join a zerg until they can achieve enough realm rank to fight at the smaller scales.
- Crowd control still largely dictates the results in the field. Whichever realm lands the first CC, and has the most CC in the form of mez/stun/root/disease/snare, is generally going to win 90% of the time.


End statement

I will not be renewing my subscription, and would not recommend a subscription for any player that enjoys melee classes of any type, including stealth. However, those that enjoy the support roles or ranged casters might enjoy the changes I observed, though the player population will still be an issue.

Comments

  • I feel like you and I are playing different games. But hey at least you enjoyed the "LFG" feature that nobody uses. Did you try playing a Merc/BM/Zerker/Savage? If you think melee DPS is down after playing one of those toons then we are definitely playing different games.
  • "PvE: The good
    - The ability to level a character to 50 has been improved immensely. Hardcore power leveling can create a 50 in a weekend or faster. Solo players can use quests and such to level a char to 50 in maybe a week? Two?"

    Right off the bat I had to laugh at this! Your timelines for both are way too high!
  • I feel like you and I are playing different games. But hey at least you enjoyed the "LFG" feature that nobody uses. Did you try playing a Merc/BM/Zerker/Savage? If you think melee DPS is down after playing one of those toons then we are definitely playing different games.

    Are you cheating or something?

    I have played a main tank, dual wielder, and archer on the live server. All are lacking and dependent on other melee classes to assist them to kill pretty much anything with a decent temp or "toys". I have been part of multi-tank trains that couldn't kill a simple support char, like a minstrel, let alone a cloth wearing caster or main tank. It's all due to the ablatives and abilities they doled out to everyone to counteract melee damage, and the melee damage variance table that alters your damage output regardless of spec.

    Melee in this game is little more than fodder. That's why the RvR is so caster heavy in every realm. Why be melee when you can just press a button and nuke from range?

  • edited July 17 PM
    MrZerg wrote: »
    I feel like you and I are playing different games. But hey at least you enjoyed the "LFG" feature that nobody uses. Did you try playing a Merc/BM/Zerker/Savage? If you think melee DPS is down after playing one of those toons then we are definitely playing different games.

    Are you cheating or something?

    I have played a main tank, dual wielder, and archer on the live server. All are lacking and dependent on other melee classes to assist them to kill pretty much anything with a decent temp or "toys". I have been part of multi-tank trains that couldn't kill a simple support char, like a minstrel, let alone a cloth wearing caster or main tank. It's all due to the ablatives and abilities they doled out to everyone to counteract melee damage, and the melee damage variance table that alters your damage output regardless of spec.

    Melee in this game is little more than fodder. That's why the RvR is so caster heavy in every realm. Why be melee when you can just press a button and nuke from range?

    Melee damage has definitely been nerfed slightly, but only because of all the new /uses and abilities that casters/support get now. Just about everyone has an Arrogance charge. Then there is basically every caster RR5 on a 5-10min RU timer mitigating melee damage to nothing (or wilson out of melee). Other than BM rr5 and warrior testudo, can't think of another RA for melee class that gets out of the debuff/blap of casters. Meanwhile every caster has 2 toys now to disrupt the melee train on top of all the forms of CC out there after charge is up. Doesn't take much to thwart a simple melee train, but then again tank trains can counter this as well. I love when a caster group kites indefinitely until the melee grp pulls through 2-3 of their warps and is just CC'd out (dumb)..BUT! if the tank group was smart enough, they would friggin kite too! Guess what, no RPs and no fun cuz nobody would ever engage!!

    It's tougher now but kinda almost fair... can't ask too much from BS or they will ruin it all even more... Yeah I hate that you have to hit a sorc once and then instantly switch targets and have the train switch with you cuz of their rr5 (or any caster really), and do that a few more times, but that what teamwork is for I guess

    but then again I remember when Broadsword didn't make a mythical DPS cap and savages has 21% mythical DPS in their templates and hitting anything for 400-500 mh plus quads for 1400-1800...
    Post edited by Armagedden on
  • MrZerg wrote: »
    I feel like you and I are playing different games. But hey at least you enjoyed the "LFG" feature that nobody uses. Did you try playing a Merc/BM/Zerker/Savage? If you think melee DPS is down after playing one of those toons then we are definitely playing different games.

    Are you cheating or something?

    I have played a main tank, dual wielder, and archer on the live server. All are lacking and dependent on other melee classes to assist them to kill pretty much anything with a decent temp or "toys". I have been part of multi-tank trains that couldn't kill a simple support char, like a minstrel, let alone a cloth wearing caster or main tank. It's all due to the ablatives and abilities they doled out to everyone to counteract melee damage, and the melee damage variance table that alters your damage output regardless of spec.

    Melee in this game is little more than fodder. That's why the RvR is so caster heavy in every realm. Why be melee when you can just press a button and nuke from range?

    It just sounds like you are part of bad groups or are just a bad player. And are you really complaining about ablatives? Getting through that 250 ablative is that hard? Come on now. I think you need to run with Herorius and his Tank train and you will see that Melee classes are just fine.
  • Armagedden wrote: »
    Melee damage has definitely been nerfed slightly....
    It's been largely reduced to ineffectiveness, not "nerfed slightly". Perhaps the fact I've been gone so long makes it easier to see than those that have been around for awhile?
    Armagedden wrote: »
    but only because of all the new /uses and abilities that casters/support get now..

    This we largely agree on, and what I cited above.

    I would not recommend this game for any player that enjoys anything other than support or casting classes, and I would definitely NOT recommend reactivating old accounts just to play melee or stealth classes.
  • edited July 17 PM
    I think you need to run with Herorius and his Tank train .......

    The fact you cite the need to run with the zerg, and a tank train, clearly demonstrates the exact point I made concerning the ineffectiveness of melee damage. Thank you for your comment.

    Post edited by MrZerg on
  • edited July 17 PM
    Idk, I played in a hib tank group for like 2 years straight and tanks still rip. However, if your idea of playing a tank in a tank group is to tab target and go mongo assist on the first target you see, while you leave the support free to pump 1200 heals in your target, then you just deserve to die.
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • Rank a tanker on Mid for most of 2019. Melee DPS isn't a problem. Knowing which targets to pick and how to maximize your DPS is a bigger issue for casual players.
  • MrZerg wrote: »
    I think you need to run with Herorius and his Tank train .......

    The fact you cite the need to run with the zerg, and a tank train, clearly demonstrates the exact point I made concerning the ineffectiveness of melee damage. Thank you for your comment.

    It was sarcasm based around your overall inability to compete.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    tank group....
    Group is the key word. Exactly my point. Your melee characters are so ineffective that they are required to not only dogpile on the same support / cloth wearer in order to kill it, but they must also be selective in which character they dogpile, less a tank train be unable to eliminate even a support or casting character without further assistance. I agree with you, and thank you for helping me demonstrate my point.
    puter wrote: »
    Rank a tanker on Mid for most of 2019. Melee DPS isn't a problem. Knowing which targets to pick and how to maximize your DPS is a bigger issue for casual players.

    So you have no context of how melee used to be during the period I played originally. Perhaps that is the issue here? Players commenting without context? Thank you, regardless.
    It was sarcasm based around your overall inability to compete.

    The fact that the tanks I assist, and that assist me, experience the same issue regardless of realm rank, demonstrates that it is a game design issue, and not one of "poor gameplay" on the part of any player. The fact that the "solution" to the issue I cite is exactly "tank train / zerg" demonstrates there is more truth than sarcasm in your comment. Thank you for your comment.





  • edited July 17 PM
    puter wrote: »
    Rank a tanker on Mid for most of 2019. Melee DPS isn't a problem. Knowing which targets to pick and how to maximize your DPS is a bigger issue for casual players.
    MrZerg wrote: »
    So you have no context of how melee used to be during the period I played originally. Perhaps that is the issue here? Players commenting without context? Thank you, regardless.

    Played a BM from 2001 through 2004 before playing other realms consistently. I've been playing this game off and on for nearly two decades; no longer than a one year hiatus. Survivability has increased drastically since the last time you played. However, damage output has also increased accordingly. Burst damage is more important in today's game than sustained damage as the latter is very easy to heal through. This is why it's important to maximize your DPS and take advantage of situations where the opposing player(s) healers are locked down. It's ideal to be running an AF debuffer in a tanker just as much as running a resist debuffer in a caster group.
    Post edited by puter on
  • edited July 17 PM
    @MrZerg really? Tank group, as in a.... group?

    [not needed]

    You played a tanker when? Back in 2001 when tanks just had to sneeze on a caster for it to die?

    A tank group, as in a group which mainly consists of tanks and for which the primary form of damage is melee, is really fun to play and requires you to have a clue and actually think, not just smash that assist macro spamming anytime styles?

    Are you in Pale Horse or something?

    And by the way, how is that different than playing a caster? Casters have to be selective too, they can't just pick the heavy tank in the front and hope to blap it.
    Post edited by Carol_Broadsword on
  • Shoke wrote: »
    ..to understand what I wrote?

    I understand exactly what you wrote. No need to get upset or insulting. You find it perfectly acceptable for melee classes to be ineffective to the point they require entire teams to kill support chars or casters. I simply don't agree and believe it to be a discredit, disservice, and little more than a "bait and switch" fraud to every player that wasted time creating, templating, and playing a melee character.

    Casters used to "sneeze" on, and destroy, other casters and support chars from 1000 plus units away back then too, which you seem to have forgotten.

    Thank you for you comment.
  • Melee dps is still a big thing I still think one of the easiest set up to run in mid is a tank train. Ya with heals free casting you won't kill anything but if there not getting healed they tend to drop like Flys trying to take out someone by yourself with melee wile they are getting healed for 1200 plus every 1.5 secs is not going to happen same for casters. And to me more effective run a disease so that heals are only half affected. His you can run a valewalker in the train mid just have a shaman assist with his baseline disease on the ma in-between heals assuming its not cave spec. As for alb I forget what can disease over there but bet you can fit it in pretty well If not there are weapons that disease.
  • edited July 17 PM
    edited, not worth the effort.
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • Names wrote: »
    in mid is a tank train. ...
    more effective run a disease...s for alb I forget what can disease over there but bet you can fit it in pretty well If not there are weapons that disease.

    Another post confirming the ineffectiveness of melee damage, resulting in the need for multiple tanks on the same target, and support from casters in the form of disease. Thank you for your civil input.



  • So you want a single tank to be able to kill something through heals?
  • @Triq02_Dave yeah, so if you run 5 tanks you can drop half of the group without breaking a sweat
  • So you want a single tank to be able to kill something through heals?

    No, I don't agree with that. However, if two large weapon wielding tanks, or two dual wielding tanks are beating on the same low HP having target wearing cloth, or low abs armor, then yes, I absolutely believe their dps should be able to outpace the heals of a single target or groupheal spamming healer. Absolutely.

    Is that not reasonable, given the amount of CC and speed reduction capabilities shared by all realms? Those same targets would be utterly destroyed by casted dps from range, so why wouldn't chars that train solely for melee damage, or archery damage, not be able to do the same when they, too, team up on a target?

    Thank you for your civil discourse.
  • I mean idk what you want more from melee?

    My spear hero hits a cloth caster between 675 and 800, depending on weapon procs. At the same time, being virtually immune to magic CC and damage. My zerker hits a cloth caster for 450 MH + 250 OH and can spike for much (vendo + 2H weapon + banespike and you 2 hit a caster)

    My FW mauler would hit a cloth caster for 1200 dmg with the cloak proc. (Phoenix strike, 400 MH + 250 OH + 550 proc)

    Even for casters, 2 casters on a target isn't dropping anyone if you leave a support able to pump 1200 heals every second.

    That's why disease is important, as much as making sure the enemy support is locked down and unable to heal (unless they MoC).

    There a couple ways to get a disease, either using a diseasing class (VW, shaman, as an example) or using disease proccing weapons (astral mephitic fang)

    That's the whole concept of the game. That's why there are better players than others, because you can't run around in circles one shotting casters without having any consideration on CCing out support. You need to know how to play and what to do to be successful.

    That's the DNA of daoc.
  • most of the damage being done by casters are being done because of a 50% debuff another caster is casting on you.
  • MrZerg wrote: »

    No, I don't agree with that. However, if two large weapon wielding tanks, or two dual wielding tanks are beating on the same low HP having target wearing cloth, or low abs armor, then yes, I absolutely believe their dps should be able to outpace the heals of a single target or groupheal spamming healer. Absolutely.

    Is that not reasonable, given the amount of CC and speed reduction capabilities shared by all realms? Those same targets would be utterly destroyed by casted dps from range, so why wouldn't chars that train solely for melee damage, or archery damage, not be able to do the same when they, too, team up on a target?

    Thank you for your civil discourse.

    No, it's not reasonable.

    See my post above since it appears you missed it.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    I mean idk what you want more from melee?

    My spear hero hits a cloth caster......

    I bet your spearo hits a cloth caster for maybe 4-500 on average, AT BEST, due to ablatives and resists. And if it's a sorc or warrior with their RR5 up, it hits for less than a 1 handed unspecced bard does.

    My assertion is that melee is inadequate and ineffecitve in this game, exactly because of the increase of counter melee ablatives and abilities, and not a single post anyone has made has done anything but confirm and verify my assertion. You are not arguing against the dps effectiveness of a character by saying "add more characters", you confirm the ineffectiveness. Likewise, you are not arguing against the effectiveness of a character by recommending the use of disease, you confirm the ineffectiveness of that character.

    Both, melee and archery damage have been marginalized to the point of ineffectiveness in the modern game due to counter melee abilities and ablatives. If you are a returning player that mains melee classes or an archer, I would NOT recommend a subscription, and would recommend seeking your gameplay elsewhere. Perhaps a future patch will address these issues, however, as it stands now your enjoyment of your character will be extremely limited to the point it's not worth your time.


    I have unsubscribed both of the accounts I had active.

    I wish you all good fortune and health, regardless of any personal animosity my opinion may create among you.
  • MrZerg wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    I mean idk what you want more from melee?

    My spear hero hits a cloth caster......

    I bet your spearo hits a cloth caster for maybe 4-500 on average, AT BEST, due to ablatives and resists. And if it's a sorc or warrior with their RR5 up, it hits for less than a 1 handed unspecced bard does.

    My assertion is that melee is inadequate and ineffecitve in this game, exactly because of the increase of counter melee ablatives and abilities, and not a single post anyone has made has done anything but confirm and verify my assertion. You are not arguing against the dps effectiveness of a character by saying "add more characters", you confirm the ineffectiveness. Likewise, you are not arguing against the effectiveness of a character by recommending the use of disease, you confirm the ineffectiveness of that character.

    Both, melee and archery damage have been marginalized to the point of ineffectiveness in the modern game due to counter melee abilities and ablatives. If you are a returning player that mains melee classes or an archer, I would NOT recommend a subscription, and would recommend seeking your gameplay elsewhere. Perhaps a future patch will address these issues, however, as it stands now your enjoyment of your character will be extremely limited to the point it's not worth your time.


    I have unsubscribed both of the accounts I had active.

    I wish you all good fortune and health, regardless of any personal animosity my opinion may create among you.

    Honest question; A cloth caster has 2200 hps on avg? So what would be a good amount of damage to do to a cloth caster on a Spearo(or any melee)? Because at the moment given the numbers you have given it will take 4 maybe 5 swings to kill it. You want to be hitting cloth wearers for 1,000 and 2 shot things? On average melee is equal to spell damage unless you are standing inside of pbaoe as most casters without debuffs hit between 300-500.

    It's weird to say the least.
  • edited July 20 PM
    @MrZerg why you say that, I told you what my hero hits for.

    Also, you know what you do when a sorx uses his R5? You switch target. Just has a caster nuking a heavy will switch when said heavy tank uses fury.

    Nobody confirmed anything you said, we all said melee dps is good. Disease is useful for both caster and melee dps, it's not mandatory, it just helps.

    Again, too bad you cancelled your sub, but enjoy WoW since it's the game you wanted to play.

    Sorry you feel like the game doesn't reward bad play.
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • @Shoke I gotta agree with @MrZerg calling you out on your Hero damage. I have never had a Hero hit any of my (melee) toons for anything close to a number that I could see translating to what you would hit a caster for, if that makes sense. No doubt you will hit a squishy caster with a bad temp+no PD for around those numbers SOMETIMES, but a fully buffed caster with a normal template I just don't see damage of a 2h-er consistantly hitting for 675+... But to be honest it has everything to do with PD, that **** ruins melee dmg so much..

    Just as an example, my rr11 savage when spec'd 2h ON AVERAGE will only hit casters for 500-700 a swing. Of course the damage varies largely from class to class and what their spec is etc or the other ablatives/af bonuses from classes the group is running..

    Also, on my Warrior which I play often I can say I don't think I've ever seen myself hit past the 600's without a crit on any class unless we are talking debuffed or unbuffed.

    I understand your points though, but lets not put wrong info out there and have people thinking they can roll a Hero and wonder why they are regularly hitting for 400-500 on casters and think they just suck because of it.
Sign In or Register to comment.