Hibernia is NOT overpowered


I would just like to say Hibernia is not overpowered...

BUT..

When you are defending against higher number at keeps you need to be able to fight back, Herorius zerging isnt the problem.

I have and do play both EU and US times and it is clear Hibs are not overpowered in zerg verses zerg with even numbers, infact, I would say its 50/50 against both Mids and Hibs playing as an alb.

All that being said when you have Hibs attacking a keep with fewer numbers the Stun becomes a BIG problem. When you defend against mids you can poke your head out and nuke or interrupt there can be no good defence against hibs with larger numbers.

For example.

As an Alb you poke your head out and 3 casters are spamming nearest target, face, stun and you are screwed. First time thats fine, Purge, do it again, 1min later Stun, its cool, I have stun feedback up so you make it back, now they have you targeted and just wait for you to try again, purge is down, no mezz feedback, even with single target heals if you are stuck there for 5-6 secs the other hibs notice you in view and naturally switch target and nuke you down. Rince and repeat but your purge is down for atleast 5 mins and you cant poke your head out without being stunned again every time to you poke your head out.

Now as much as I hate Hib stun on "Real" damage dealing nukers, and I do hate it. <shudder>

I would defend a keep everyday from mids as they do not have the ability to lock down defenders after Purge and Stun feedback is down, infact that maybe why mids dont even attempt keeps I would imagine, its just harder.

I know Blah blah blah Alb calling for a nerf of Hib stun again but like I said, I dont not think its a problem in Zerg vs Zerg, smaller numbers defending keeps its a HUGE problem and you cannot defend against it.

I dont have a solution for you as its been in the game for such a long time, I do know Albs are not going to even play during EU time soon.

How about keep the stun but make the immunity 7-10 mins and increase it if thats not enough. Still an I win but only if you are using it at the right time and you cant spam. This will break the smite cleric I imagine.

On a side note.

Bard insta amneisa needs to be changed to castible and maybe a single target insta on a 1 min cooldown. :open_mouth:
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Comments

  • Revert F8 range to what it used to be
  • give tics back their range
  • edited July 13 PM
    Hib vs Mid

    NS > SB
    Eldy > Runie
    Chanter > SM
    Ment > Warlock
    Hero > Warrior
    BM = Zerker or Savage
    Ranger > Hunter
    Champ > Skald
    Druid > Shaman
    Bard > Healer
    Warden > Valk
    Animist or Bain > BD


    I’ll give Midgard the Thane over the VW, but not by much lol.

    Hib obviously OP.
    Post edited by DaRedANT on
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  • edited July 13 PM
    If it only would make sense to compare classes like this...
    At least you didnt compare a NS to a healer.
    Post edited by Kroko on
  • Realms don't and should not ever mirror each other so comparing straight classes to one another is stupid
  • @DaRedANT

    Chanter > SM?
    Bain > BD?

    Man I want what you sre smoking
  • Me thinks Ye do protest too much
  • I think you make some very good points Stoopid but I dont think the Devs or Hibs will listen at this point.

    Hibs are too used to casted stun on list casters for it to be removed.

    Do I think the game would be better and more playable with this removed... absolutely.
    Do I see this ever happening... not with the current state of the game.
  • edited July 13 PM
    Shoke wrote: »
    @DaRedANT

    Chanter > SM?
    Bain > BD?

    Man I want what you sre smoking


    Some of the matchups are up for debate. Some of them don’t mirror each as much as other do. But it’s previous obvious to me that almost every Hib equivalent, of a Mid toon is better than the Mid version.

    Hib has better casters, supports, hyrbids, and stealthers than Mid. Mid has better tanks? Barely.
    Post edited by DaRedANT on
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  • CC is, and has been, garbage since day 1, and should have been reserved solely for mobs/npc's. It should all go right in the dumpster where it belongs, and hitpoints and interrupt codes should be adjusted accordingly.

    Regardless, you fail to mention the impact bolt range mez from Alb has had on the game, or the AE stun mid uses, or the various snares added to the game, which all make the gameplay worse for everyone at the wrong end of the "I win" button. It's all trash, and should be treated accordingly.


  • I could compare classes like DaRedAnt but its pointless.

    As I said the problem is not Hib having stun, the problem is the advantage it give them while attacking in greater numbers, it is not a problem to fight mids when outnumbered in a keep like I said. Its not fun and they will not defend.

    This is not a problem when it is Mids.

    You cannot defend a keep at all when you are out numbered 2 or 3 to 1 against hibs, and I dont mean any realm should win in that situation but it is hopeless to defend against 50-60 hibs with 16 maybe albs when you cannot even cast down after the first 3 mins having blown purge and stun feedback.

    An immunity timer of 10 mins on single target stun damage dealing class doesnt make the ability less useful.

    All the classes with stun in hib have atleast 1 other form of CC.

    Just to round it out, Bards and Healers have an Insta mezz to combat bolt mezz.

    Bards have 2 insta amneisa on short reuse that negate that bolt range mezz and can keep any caster shut down constantly.

    But this in not about comparing all classes, I am telling you why Hero gets the blame for killing the game and that is NOT the problem and Hibs are not overpowered.
  • @stoopiduser

    Healer > Bard Yeah bard has a single and an AE insta amnesia on a RUT. 2000 range. Healer has Amnesia castable 2300 range no RUT.

    Mind sorc has an insta mezz as well.
  • edited July 13 PM
    Fine make bard castable like i said in original post, insta amniesa like you know makes sure bards win EVERY mez battle if they know what what they are doing as I am sure you know.. Mr Bard.

    If healers dont need such an overpowered ability niether does bard.
    Post edited by Stoopiduser on
  • Fine make bard castable like i said in original post, insta amniesa like you know makes sure bards win EVERY mez battle if they know what what they are doing as I am sure you know.. Mr Bard.

    If healers dont need such an overpowered ability niether does bard.

    I find the mez battle argument to be extremely silly. The reality is whoever spots the other group(s) first wins the mez. When both groups are aware of each other, then winning the mez is no longer a top priority unless the opposing groups don't know how to split or use their RAs. Interrupting is generally the better tool to use during fights since mez is easily cured or lasts less than the 10 seconds on Det9 + Stoicism tanks. Bolt range roots are far more effective than mez simply because there's a timer on the cure root unlike cure mez. Either way, CC is completely target dependent and situational. I doubt any groups rely on "winning the mez" in 2020 DAoC. Unless you're bombing a clump of players. ;)
  • Then bards dont need instant amnesia, they have root, mezz, insta mezz, and FZ. If Insta amnesia is as overpowered as we all know its is, they dont need it.

    Anyways the bard was secondary, back on topic 10 min immunity on casted stun anyone?
  • Perfectly fine to remove instant amnesia so long as they get the casted version. Mentalists would have to lose casted amnesia for balance too. However, we're going down the homogeneity pathway instead of taking the rock, paper, scissors approach to balance classes. Mimicking classes across each realm for fairness is starkly against DAoC's design. Don't get me wrong, it's a pain in the ass to balance the game that way but it's one of the core appeals for DAoC.

    Regarding the stun suggestion, a 10 minute immunity makes no sense for an ability that lasts ~5-6 seconds for a grouped player (less on det9 + stoicism tanks). Here's an idea if we go with the above plan to remove instant amnesia. Only give Mentalists baseline stun and remove it from Eldritches and Enchanters. I imagine players will still find a reason to complain but it's better than some of the suggestions I've seen so far, imo of course.
  • edited July 13 PM
    @MrZerg should really find a different game to play, it's almost like he wants to play WoW but he's ashamed to say it.

    @Stoopiduser a bard needs a long range rupt. Right now it's insta amnesia, which is good considering how a bard plays. Remove a long range rupt from a bard and sorcs will eat hib groups alive. Don't be blinded by your hatred of the casted stun and try to think.

    Healers have every single spell available to them, however it is a high skill cap class. Sadly, a mid group depends heavily on having a good pac, hib groups are easier cause a bard is easier to play.

    Biggest issue on mid is that the skald has SoS. What a waste.

    Why do we still think baseline stun is OP? Because ppl die in a siege fight?
    Post edited by Shoke on
  • I clearly said I dont think stun is OP when that caster can be interrupted, which they can not in keep siege when they outnumber the enemy, and like I said before it is not a problem when defending against Mids resulting in more fun and more defenders for the attackers to kill.

    Don't be blinded by your reflex defend Hib at all cost.

    Bards would have the same range rupt as every other casting class in the game, a castable spell not a I win by closing down any caster I like while healing/mezzing/demezzing/rezzing..

    And again this is not aimed at Bards due to the subject being about keep sieges and defenders not having fun causing them to log out without having fun or switching realm.
  • Shoke wrote: »
    @DaRedANT

    Chanter > SM?
    Bain > BD?

    Man I want what you sre smoking

    Actually it was ani/bain>bd
    Ani is >BD by a MILE. Bain is meh since all the other hib classes are so OP.

    Chanter is group uber. SM is also one of mids best classes, so I would have personally given this a tie or POSSIBLY to SM.

    Thane and SM over their respective hib classes. Are you still saying hibs not OP?
  • Shoke wrote: »
    Healers have every single spell available to them

    This is the ever returning falacy.

    Please display the healer spec that has "every single spell available to them".

    It's like someone arguing that a bard could spec 50 weapon, 50 songs, 50 rej and 50 enhance. While they have a TON more spec points than a healer, they still have to pick and choose, and one character can only spec for one character.
  • Minibard wrote: »
    @stoopiduser

    Healer > Bard

    Says the almost r13 bard.
  • edited July 14 PM
    Koe wrote: »
    Shoke wrote: »
    @DaRedANT

    Chanter > SM?
    Bain > BD?

    Man I want what you sre smoking

    Actually it was ani/bain>bd
    Ani is >BD by a MILE. Bain is meh since all the other hib classes are so OP.

    Chanter is group uber. SM is also one of mids best classes, so I would have personally given this a tie or POSSIBLY to SM.

    Thane and SM over their respective hib classes. Are you still saying hibs not OP?

    Exactly, Ani over BD by a mile. Don’t sleep on the Bain. PBAE fear, single fear, AE nearsight, demezz, AE Bolt!

    Post edited by DaRedANT on
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  • You cannot defend a keep at all when you are out numbered 2 or 3 to 1 against hibs......

    So what IS an "acceptable" time for you to not win? 4 to 1? 18 to 1?

    Your user name is spot on.
    Shoke wrote: »
    @MrZerg should really find a different game to play...

    Nah, I'll just roll a stunnukenukenuke caster instead and farm you in keeps so you can make cry posts about it like the OP.

  • I am literally less intelligent after reading these posts.

    "Remove cc completely items an I win button" like ????
  • Koe wrote: »
    Minibard wrote: »
    @stoopiduser

    Healer > Bard

    Says the almost r13 bard.

    So I should know that a Healer > bard. But I have a RR11 Healer as well. My healer is speced 44Pac 31 Mend I have Root, mez, insta mezz, ae mezz, insta ae mezz, stun, insta stun, ae stun, insta ae stun, demezz, amensia, ae amensia, confusion Single target heals, insta heals, ae heals, spread heals, insta ae heals, DI, plus more. I think that covers a lot more than a bard. If the best you got is insta Amnesia and Cloak.
  • MrZerg wrote: »
    Your user name is spot on.

    Oh Nooo, please dont call me Stoopid, bless you :wink:
    MrZerg wrote: »
    So what IS an "acceptable" time for you to not win? 4 to 1? 18 to 1?

    I dont care about getting killed at a seige, I do care people are not having fun and people not playing or logging on during EU time. As should you.

    Again, Secondary..
    Minibard wrote: »
    If the best you got is insta Amnesia and Cloak.

    So you admit Insta Amnesia is OP? :smiley:

  • @Koe ok, let's take a classic 38 pac 33 mend 18 aug spec.

    Demezz
    Mezz
    Ae mezz
    Insta single mezz
    Insta ae mezz
    Root
    Stun (11 sec delve, holy **** 2 sec longer than hib stun)
    Ae stun (9 sec, damn that's pretty long)
    Insta single stun
    Insta ae stun
    Single amnesia (casted)
    Ae amnesia (casted)
    Attack speed debuff
    Celerity
    Good major and greater heals
    Single insta heal
    Group insta heal
    Spreadheal
    Perfect recovery
    DI
    Forceful zephyr
    BoF
    Phase shift


    That's only like 23 good abilities. You could also remove aug completely and only lose celerity, but gain either stronger cc or stronger heals.

    Highest utility bard spec would look like 44 nurt, 37 music 32 reg.

    Demezz
    Mezz
    Ae mezz
    Root
    Single insta mezz
    Ae insta mezz
    Confuse
    Mezz damp
    Major and greater heals
    Insta ae amnesia
    Single insta amnesia
    2x single DDs
    SoS
    Phase shift
    Forceful zephyr
    Blade side snare

    That's 16ish abilities. I think the healer wins the ability contest by a mile.

    The only difference is that a bard can cycle through his amnesia and DDs, while the healer has all forms of cc and can spam amnesia.


    I'm not a pro hib, I played a lot of hib, played a lot of alb, played less mid.

    Ok a ES bain is strong, when you design your group around it. It's on the body train, which isn't great. You have to go out of your way to include it in a group.

    Ae bolts? Really that's an argument? That thing is good at clearing theurg pets and breaking cc. ES bain has no cc, that's a pretty big deterrent. I played in a group with a ES bain and yes it is strong.

    Stronger than a SM, gtfo of here. SM is the strongest caster in the game, hands down. Even after the lifetap was nerfed it's still the best caster.

    Creep ani is stronger than a BD, mainly for the bolt range ae root. BD has a longer rupt, but single target. Other than that, I'd consider the rupting power of the pets pretty equivalent. Supp BD has crazy utility, BA did get nerfed after years of ridicule, dark is meh. A bit like Arb that is a very meh spec, the delay in the dps kinda ruins all the high delve dps they have in that line.


    @MrZerg is just a dumb troll, not even entertaining.
  • Ok to sum everything up for @John_Broadsword.

    Something needs to be done with hib stun at keeps, I would vote for immunity timer to be increased ALOT so keeps can be defended against higher number hibs, as stated not an issue against Mids.

    Again secondary.

    And for some reason the Hib players dont like you discussing changing instant amnesia to a short cast time, I dont know why.. oh wait thats because Bards are top of the CC game by a mile as its OP to shutdown any caster at all with instant amnesia while mezzing/demezzing/rezzing/healing.
  • I thought the PBAOE changes were meant to help smaller, coordinated groups take out larger forces. Why isn't the OP using those tools? Must be baseline stun and instant amnesia! :D

    Or perhaps the coordinated aspect is the problem. I guess the world will never know.
  • @stoopiduser oh yeah that demezz and heal is shutting down that caster, btw my single target heal is only about 500 not setting records with that

    Go watch some irc fights as they distroy the hibs on their mids. or watch some of the drafts. If you have a good bard, it will seem OP, if you have a good healer /sorc same thing.
  • Ok I get it @Minibard you dont want to lose your insta amnesia..

    So you cant mezz or at the very least group heal while hitting an amnesia insta? How strange I can nuke and debuff.

    I dont know who you think you are fooling appart from yourself, I wouldnt want to give it up either.

    and @puter if stun at keep seige isnt a problem, its not a problem to give up stunning the same person every 1 min.
  • Ok to sum everything up for @John_Broadsword.

    Something needs to be done with hib stun at keeps, I would vote for immunity timer to be increased ALOT so keeps can be defended against higher number hibs, as stated not an issue against Mids.

    Again secondary.

    And for some reason the Hib players dont like you discussing changing instant amnesia to a short cast time, I dont know why.. oh wait thats because Bards are top of the CC game by a mile as its OP to shutdown any caster at all with instant amnesia while mezzing/demezzing/rezzing/healing.

    "Great talk about Healer v Bard!! in conclusion, nerf baseline stun lol"

    Great laughs in this thread.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • To be fair, the thread is about the stun at keep sieges with a little extra at the end about bards :tongue:
  • "Hey, I have an issue with a particular ability in a particular instance!"
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Correct glad you are paying attention.
  • and @puter if stun at keep seige isnt a problem, its not a problem to give up stunning the same person every 1 min.

    Can we clump Mez and Root with your proposed Stun nerf too since they aren't a problem in keep sieges? How about debuffs? Where do we draw the line exactly? Remove CC? This is the wrong game if that's the goal. XD
  • Mez and root arent the issue and you know that.

    No need to put yourself down pretending to not understand what is being said.
  • Find a different way to defend outside of poking your head out from behind a wall. 2020 and single target stun still brings the QQ.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • edited July 14 PM
    Ok Dale, what would you suggest 20 alb do against 80 hibs? they can do nothing.

    Its is not a problem against Mids like i said its still fun and not pointless to try.

    If you cannot have fun people log off.

    Hey I am farmed all day everyday i dont mind as i still have fun mostly but Alb numbers are dropping fast.
    Post edited by Stoopiduser on
  • Bait them outside of the keep and kite them into a stack of traps? Or a flank? Maybe just kite and assist them down one by one with your almost 3 assist trains? Do you need battlefield advice? There are plenty of world renowned books on the subject.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Xuu/Patar crew on Alb and Mid made Hero's BG pull off keeps when they defend. Why wasn't baseline stun an issue there?
  • puter wrote: »
    Xuu/Patar crew on Alb and Mid made Hero's BG pull off keeps when they defend. Why wasn't baseline stun an issue there?

    CC is the "i win" button, duh.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Hey you could come play Alb if you like come bring your perfect group and defend and see how that goes for you without running away leaving the casual alb to get farmed again and not log in the next night.

    Why cant you see that i am not attacking hib i am trying to improve the experience for the last few of us even trying to defend in Alb.
  • The advice is in the post. Form organized groups with assist trains. If a group needs to be perfect to have an assist train, well, that's your first problem on Alb.

    /macro assist /assist <ma's name>
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the bentsword local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Hey you could come play Alb if you like come bring your perfect group and defend and see how that goes for you without running away leaving the casual alb to get farmed again and not log in the next night.

    Why cant you see that i am not attacking hib i am trying to improve the experience for the last few of us even trying to defend in Alb.

    We've identified the problem. You're attempting to play casually against an organized BG when they have a numbers advantage. Good luck trying to fix that by removing stun nuke.

    P.S. I play all three realms during NA prime time. Just haven't played on Ywain recently. Still waiting on BS to make the game experience worth $15 / month. But that's a separate issue. ;)
  • I am not sure how I can explain this another way for you.

    This is not a problem against Mids.

    I cannot be anymore clear than that.
  • edited July 14 PM
    I've also read from Muy himself that the Mid BG can't accumulate the same numbers as the Hib BG and wipes to a group of players. Using Mids as a metric to justify your position isn't holding up here. This is a skill gap issue more than a class issue. They can be hard to distinguish sometimes.
    Post edited by puter on
  • edited July 14 PM
    Its the same problem.

    Mids cant defend against hibs either, they dont even try AT ALL. Annamarie doesnt even defend with teh numbers he gets.

    Albs dont have BG leader so they dont Zerg somewhere else, they log having had a bad night and cant be arsed to log in at all.

    When hero logs in alb log out some of them join him others dont play.
    Post edited by Stoopiduser on
  • Its silly to fix a number problem by nerfing the realm with more numbers.

    Just shut the server down, if BS is unable to create numbers.
  • edited July 14 PM
    The problem you're facing isn't unique and is historical in DAoC's lifetime. More leaders = more players. That has been the case since this game came out. It wasn't long ago that EU Albs had the Darkyi BG which did well against the Hero BG. The caveat today is that there isn't a large enough population to hide poor performing players even in zerg fights. Therefore, it is very easy to tip the scale in any fight with a single group of players (sometimes less). Consequently, casual players have some limited options: a.) join the winning side to continue shrouding yourself, b.) improve your gameplay to increase your odds against the winning side, or c.) quit. There is nothing Broadsword can do to help this situation outside of implementing strategies to increase the overall population (RIP EC). This particular issue needs to be addressed by the community working together across realms. NA prime has improved drastically over the past three years in terms of leadership despite the population being low. There's a BG up in each realm most of the week. The days of not knowing who you're fighting are long gone. I think EU players, especially those who play on Hib, need to take initiative in creating their own action before they destroy what's left.
    Post edited by puter on
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