Balancing: Where Broadsword completely failed (opinion of a returning player that played since 2001)

edited May 10 in General Board
I am replaying this game on the official servers now since almost a year / half a year and there are really harsh topics which i still can hardly oversee or find unacceptable (from my standpoint of view).

There are different topics / classes where i feel how hardly Broadsword tried to make every class "same same" on the one hand and there seem to be harsh imbalances in between the classes on the other hand as well.

Some examples:

1. Main pet classes (Spirit Master / Cabalist / Enchanter) - pets being reworked:
- the pets being obviously very overworked, since classes like the spirit master and enchanter received very specialized pets - so for example the SM now having a pet which is able to heal and is able to inflict DoT damage. Every pet class like enchanter and SM having now a pet that is able to stun and to inflict special melee style attacks - fine so far.

But then what i really asked myself since every of the other two pet classes (SM + Enchanter) have received melee pet which performs a stun from time to time, why in the world you made the awkward decision to get rid of the stun of the amber simulacrum which was there since the very first beginning(!!) of DAOC?! How do you legitimate that you turned the cabalist who always had a stun pet from beginning into the only pet class without pet stun, i dont see the point?
How was that legitimated?? The amber simulacrum is extremly useless and trashy right now - especially compared to what it was before and in comparison to the other melee pets of the other two classes.

it just feels very "out of context" why that was done this way.. i like the idea of boosting the other pets of SM and enchanter - but why the heck the amber simulcarum stun was being removed??


2. Friar and Valewalker:

- though one of my main classes is a valewalker i think the pbaoe stidestyle chain combo was a triple combo for a reason just because it is just "too much" how it turns out as a skill chain 2 combo - especially when people keep to exploit and practically can perform sidestyle combos by being more or less in front / behind the character

- next "same same" topic: why did the friar receive a sidestyle dd weapon proc just as the valewalker, since friar always branched out from the healer supporting classes he received access to instant heals and heal weapon style procs with also higher evasion than valewalker which means = higher defense skills (heal procs, healing spells + better evasion) which makes him a more supporting orientated off-tank in comparison to a purely damage orientated valewalker (life drain dd spell, instant dd, dd weapon procs).

So thats why i dont really get why in the world the friar received a sidestyle dd proc weapon style just like the valewalker when his pure nature is to be able to heal himself up in battle with unique healing weapon styles. From what i always understood balancing wise: the higher utillities and healing skills > the lower the damage, if the character is only supposed to have damage skills and less support utillity = the higher damage he makes or the more damage orientated skills he has (damage dd procs).

Its just like as if wardens would ask for dd weapon procs as well because wardens may feel that their damage is "too low". or if valewalkers would ask for "healing procs" now, too? It literally makes - logically speaking - no sense when it comes to balancing. Friar has unique healing weapon procs - there was literally no need for giving him also "valewalker dd procs".
Is that "same same"? Yes it is.. and in my opinion very unlegitimated as well..


3. Assassin classes (Shadowblade / Infiltrator / Nightshade)
- biggest change here is that every of these classes can reapply all of their poisons even during battle while cutting out many of the most characteristic poisons (such as snare) - the assassins also received a sidestyle weapon stun which doesn't need stealth as a requirement - this is where the "same same" comes into the game - since this was mostly what assassins distinguished themselves off being duel wield fighters such as mercenaries, blademaster and the berserker - assassins actually had to engage in stealth in order to assassinate in order to inflict devastating damage that stuns the opponent. why making it "same same" here at this point - for what was that actually needed?

The biggest flaw i see here is: assassins don't need to assassinate out of stealth in order to land stun - especially when being able to start with a mezz poison so the sidestyle stun becomes more or less an "anytime" stun which can be applied in every stage (!!) of battle now. This way i experience very often that assassins directly engage me in battle without even bothering to attack out of stealth mode which then requires much much less efford.
Second flaw here: pets have no true sight anymore so once a pet is following the stealther they just can easily get away now, many bugs where i receive "not visible" messages when casting damage spells on assassins in stealth if they are close enough / visible to me. Stealthers have a huge advantage to be permanently stealthed and being able to pick the right enemy and situation and being pushed and protected that much isn't really something which i personally endorse.

And generally speaking just because of that: it feels like every class now has access to sidestyle weapon stun. Which then feels again at some point: "same same"


4. Necromancer

the original idea of the necromancer was very unique: dividing the casters soul / ghost from his own body - while doing that he was unable to being hit by enemies.

Now it turns out that the necromancer ended up to be a regular "summoner" with different pets to summon (except maybe for the melee spec). I personally would have wished if the original idea of the necromancer was boosted a little bit forward instead of degrading him to a regular pet caster (more or less).


5. Vampiir
one of my hibernian favorite classes was always the vampiir (WAS) - especially the embrace "anti stealth / anti melee" spec (which it WAS before).

And here the devs seemed to have the "glorious" idea to shift 3(!) buff skills into one line (embrace spec) whereas other skill lines now end up having only 1(!) buff skill - which make these lines extremely unbalanced to the numbers of buf spells alone..

Why is that a huge flaw? Since every buff of the vampiir shares a 15 seconds re-use-timer with all other buffs which means for the embrace spec that you can get out all of your spec buffs after 45 seconds (!) being in a fight which is ridiculously unrpractical for 90% of all RVR fights.. thats why the fumble DEBUFF (once being in the embrace spec) was a perfect addition to the other 2 buffs which have been within the embrace spec (since vampiir buffs and debuffs don't share the same timers). Additionally fumble debuff was a good skill against melee classes like assassins since by having anti-stealth lore buff and evade buff the embrace vampiir was obviously original intended to be an anti stealth class - which then was destroyed by Broadsword completely.
And as said before the extreme imbalance of having only 1 buff in the sm spec line and 3(!) buffs in the embrace spec (which you practically don't use in most of RVR situations due to long shared re-use timers) i don't really see why these changes actually have been made.. these decisions seem to be so "out of context" and seem to miss "understanding" of the spec lines itself almost completely.


I could add many things to this list, but thats it for me (my personal opinion) on that for now.

My 2 Cents
Post edited by Bothka on

Comments

  • :| :'( :s :'( :(

    oh no.
  • edited May 10 PM
    You know that ONLY alb has the longer range mezz class? All realms, classes are not the same. I am sure any daoc user could list tons of things like that ..
    Post edited by CreatE on
  • Wardens are over the top with utility which they keep enhancing yet forget about the melee side which is what the class was and should be all about...a melee oriented utility heal class.

    Friars are in a good place and so are Vales with the edge still leaning towards them. Vamps could use some tweaking and Necromancers are just hilariously OP.

    Wardens though...most certainly need a DD proc wep style.
  • If only wardens had a 50% Abs debuff anytime style, oh wait... I mean pleae give wardens celtic spear.
  • VW is definitely not in a good place. Keep the DD remove the life tap. Reduce dmg of side chain slightly.
  • Actually took the time to read through this post this morning. Gotta admit I think your issues are all valid, especially as someone returning to the game. Broadsword ruined a lot of classes in the last three years. They've done a lot to try and re-balance all the bad decisions, but it is still a long ways off.

    As far as Vamps go, they were in an amazing place before all this new gear. With the introduction of these new OP items from Curse and Otherworldly, it made templating hybrids much easier, and with the introduction of having 7-10% conversion in every template, it really put vamps over the top. a Vamp can now have 10% conversion to power and up to 30% conversion with their freezing chest proc, making their powerpool almost limitless. Broadsword tried to combat this by upping the Powerleak Battlemaster style power drain from 75 to over 100, but it wasn't enough and literally if you aren't Battlemaster ML spec you are SoL when fighting a vamp. They then, instead of nerfing conversion on classes such as vamp who were never intended to have it, instead they revamped all the speclines for vamp, making them all sorts of wacky...

    Friar needed a DPS boost to make their melee specline more valuable for groups, but you still dont see staff friars in groups... But friars are in an alright place.

    Valewalkers are one tough cookie. Broadsword's fix to this was reduce their crazy rr5 ablative, but it was probably the wrong move. The side style PBAOE chain is very niche in groups, as it can break CC where you don't want it to. I agree with @Thrakonna that it wouldn't hurt to reduce the delve slightly.

    Pet classes... they never really needed any love to begin with IMO, and Broadsword (as is a theme with them) put them well over the top. SM warrior pet is currently extremely OP. Necro class in general is an embarassment from a development standpoint as far as balance... They really need to make some changes (NOT standard over-the-top Broadsword changes, but tweaks to put everything in line) but I don't think they are capable of any of it, as this stuff has been out of whack for years.

    I have little hope...

    On the bright side, they finally made their ridiculous OP end-game gear easily available for all players now. So with a little bit of grinding you actually can be on the same OP level as other hardcore players
  • edited May 11 PM
    @Shoke Wardens don't have a Anytime 50% abs debuff. They have a second in chain 50%ABS debuff that barely lands ever with a terrible growth rate and no "to hit" bonus. Throw that onto a class that has dismal wep skill and def pen even after the 25% wep skill thrown in and you still have crappy melee abilities. Just because they have "access" to it doesn't mean it works in actual game play. It certainly does look good on paper though.

    Agreed Necromancers are just a Abomination of a class....see what I did there lol.
    Post edited by Kymatius on
  • twf--bubble--resists--heals---bm styles oh and ghetto speed.....am i missing something lol
  • they can sprint too
  • and jump
  • Backflips or bust.
  • Cab is the strongest pet class in game when combined with RR5 ability.Many pets no longer have stun.

    SM's and Cabs are both incredibly good when well played given the pet, utility, and lifetaps. You shouldn't lose a 1v1 which after reading your post is what I think you spend time doing because these aren't group specific issues.
  • 3) very flawed and biased opinion vs Sins.
    Pets if damaged are buggged and will hunt down a stealther even crossing zone boundaries.

    Click aggro cast a speed charge or get on horse and they zoom off popping the stealther!

    Side stun has always been there and all three realms have it in many lines.

    Stealthers can attack you from stealth yea that’s an advantage and the point.

    Poisons have been nerfed at least four times and the Viper realm ability neutered...
  • edited May 13 PM
    Koe wrote: »
    Cab is the strongest pet class in game when combined with RR5 ability.Many pets no longer have stun.

    SM's and Cabs are both incredibly good when well played given the pet, utility, and lifetaps. You shouldn't lose a 1v1 which after reading your post is what I think you spend time doing because these aren't group specific issues.

    Caby Pets are an Emberessment to all Pet Classes, the are made of Glass in comparison to all Spirt Master or Enchanter pets, one Specc Line removes the Pet alltogether, and the RR5 is a Joke, yes, the pet becomes Imune to CC but any caster nukes it down with 1 or 2 nukes and thats with a buffed pet.

    Edit: Spirit Warrior replaced to Spirit Master
    Post edited by Indur on
  • Caby pets can hit quite hard though if I remember correctly. I think no pet should have permanent snare ability like the enchanter one. This just plain sucks if you’re playing a melee class. Nevertheless, the main issue right now is really necrocancer which needs to be nerfed to oblivion to make up for all the psychological damage they caused. Then Vampir and Valewalker. Vampir is broken and VW has way too much dmg, disease, root and life leech. It should be either high damage or high survivability. I was on my Valk yesterday dueling Vulkym on his VW. The attack speed and the dmg is a plain joke. 800-900 dmg if the proc goes through. That’s oblivious.
  • edited May 13 PM
    Thrakonna it’s not the pet that snares, it’s skill in the enhancement specialization that gives the whole group a peel with each stroke, even the chanter with a stroke of the stick will snare . They should remove this abilities
    Post edited by Hellblast on
  • Thrakonna wrote: »
    Caby pets can hit quite hard though if I remember correctly. I think no pet should have permanent snare ability like the enchanter one. This just plain sucks if you’re playing a melee class. Nevertheless, the main issue right now is really necrocancer which needs to be nerfed to oblivion to make up for all the psychological damage they caused. Then Vampir and Valewalker. Vampir is broken and VW has way too much dmg, disease, root and life leech. It should be either high damage or high survivability. I was on my Valk yesterday dueling Vulkym on his VW. The attack speed and the dmg is a plain joke. 800-900 dmg if the proc goes through. That’s oblivious.

    second that.
    last few days i saw many times VW with a Mezz-Bot in Molvik taking out two 4-5-Mans simultaniously....
    1 group Mids, one group Alb, bot Mezzes everyone, VW kill one by one... two hits they fall....
    Lame like hell....
    is that what the gamemakers want ? really ? If so, nice... but keep it on Ywain.

    I want Classic, 1.65.


    Mahv
  • A firbolg with a scythe is not the gardener...
  • edited May 18 PM
    Koe wrote: »
    Many pets no longer have stun.

    SM's and Cabs are both incredibly good when well played given the pet, utility, and lifetaps.

    Heh? Which pet class got rid of stun? I only see the simulacrum pet (and for whatever reason).

    I mean the cabalist simulacrum pet ALWAYS had stun. For whatever reason they made the decision to get rid of his stun. For what reason i say? The stun was good for getting off enemy players or to hinder them from casting / running away. Sure you can use the green simulacrum for disease but its just not the same.

    And in comparison to enchanter (which a received a melee stun pet, though the caster alone has access to baseline stun) and sm none of his pets has stun anymore. If you make changes to classes there has to be legit reasons (or obviously not for Broadsword, i dont know) it seems just so incredible illogical to me.

    If you can tell me a reason alone on that change (cabalist amber simulacrum).. feel free.

    Post edited by Bothka on
  • edited May 18 PM
    Jade pet has a random chance to stun similar to the old Amber pet. The more you know. ;)
    Post edited by puter on
  • edited May 21 PM
    The jade pet stuns now.

    On a side note:
    Funny the use of "I played since 2001" as if if gives you more say on things. :D fun fact: most of us play since the very beginning, so /shrug to you.

    I find that now the game is quite balanced. A couple of classes are still quite op (savage and necromancer), but overall much better than we were 1 year or 2 years ago.

    And funny also the use of "original" throughout the post. The 'original idea' is a a thing, the actual implementation is another. Do you remember the 'original' bainshee ones hotting Zergs or the 'original' warlock unloading 3 dd chambers at once?

    /shrug
    Post edited by secky on
  • /shrug
  • [quote="secky;28513"
    I find that now the game is quite balanced. A couple of classes are still quite op (savage and necromancer), but overall much better than we were 1 year or 2 years ago. [/quote]

    Wut? Savage is just fine.There are many other classes that I would mention before savage. #1 Necro. #2 Spiritmater. #3 Vamp. #4 Bonedancer (albiet it lacks utility in groups, it's virtually unkillable 1v1. just run. #5 solo spec mauler (it's literally unkillable with a melee toon. Easiest thing to kite, but when a Mauler engages another melee toon your only option is to stun/snare and run, which is retarded

    These are the top 5. Necro needs a nuke of a nerf. I don't care if they bury them with a nerf, given how OP they've been. SM with warrior pet is just cheesy. Also, do something about Battlemaster shears... game has evolved and people can spam endlessly and it's a bit dumb. Overall @Broadsword better make some quality balance updates in this next patch

    disclaimer: I know some people will want to say, "oh not every class should be able to beat every other class. No sh*t you dumb MFer, but it shouldn't be impossible.
  • Make Battle Bards okay again!
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