Heard Broadsword is looking to tweak vanish

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  • I hope it is
    Asatruar - Ronnie 10 "
    Nogvi - Thorstadt - Oldstanky - Brumley

    The reason people hate to PvP is they are afraid of failure
  • I hope this is not true.

    Looked at some of your twitch videos . Nice fights ! Sepp

    You can see that SB a mile away. Something bugged. And those r1 albs was just plain and simple rape.
  • Stealth is bugged big time. Should have never of touched how it use to be when composite 50 is all you needed because it gave more points to be a dual wield shade, high CS, pierce or blades.

  • remove vanish it's a pathetic ability and is only ever used to run away. OR, keep vanish, but I can the RPs equal to the damage I did to you if you were to die by like, someone else. Aka if I got you to 30% and you vanish I would get like 2.5k RPs from you being a p*ssy
  • Make it simple, if you initiated the fight you can’t vanish
  • Remove vanish ! Excellent idea
  • I say make it a solo only ability... If you are grouped or have been grouped in the last 30s then it won't work. Balance restored. tbh vanish 1 isn't the problem. You could also remove vanish 2-5 and it is fixed.4
  • lets change to only vanish 1----purge 1
    moc 1
    charge 1 also....

    maybe a few others lol
  • I dont see the issue with vanish in its currennt state. Vanish 1 is garbage so you need 2 or 3 and its not guaranteed. You are disarmed for a decent amount of time plus with all the stealth lore items in game I would say even with vanish 3 you will get popped 2-3 out of 10 times
  • edited April 28 PM
    The problem they are still trying to fix is stealth zergs. Haven’t heard anyone bitch about a solo assassin vanishing.

    Every time they try to fix stealth zergs they make them worse. This will be no different

    Instead of nerfing stealthers over and over (which in turn leads them to grp more and more, and gets rid of the soloers completely), they should just remove stealth entirely
    Post edited by kedyma on
  • If they are nerfing vanish to nerf stealth zergs, they should also nerf phase shift, because in stealth groups, they are mostly used the same way...
    Da ant familyDa fly familyDa spider family
    https://www.daocutils.com/chimp/daredant
  • #removestealth2020

    Just give stealth classes some extra hits and remove stealth. Maybe give them more group friendly RAs for not having a need for stealth RAs. Replace vanish with twf or ST, only if stealth is actually removed though ;)


    Stealthers are a plague to new and returning players. Getting ripped by stealthers while picking up boxes is not conducive to people wanting to continue playing. Oh look I'm at 14/15 rubble but I got blapped. Oh I got blapped again but this time it's 3 rank 12 stealthers farming lowbies. Time to load up the fortnights
  • edited April 28 PM
    DaRedANT wrote: »
    If they are nerfing vanish to nerf stealth zergs, they should also nerf phase shift, because in stealth groups, they are mostly used the same way...

    For me, the answer is VERY simple. I know there are a lot of newer players in the game so many will not be aware that originally stealthers could NOT see other grouped stealthers.

    Why this was ever changed still confuses me to this day. If you remove the ability to see groupmates stealthed this would solve a lot of problems as you would stop a lot of the mindless zerging. It will force players to learn to coordinate themselves if they still want to run stealth groups - and I have no problem in rewarding good play. As others have touched upon, there is very little risk running stealthers at the moment which is why it attracts the very worst of the DAoC population.

    Edit: I don't know if some people are jesting when they say remove stealth, but to be honest it's something that I would like to see if they cannot work out a solution to the problem. Stealth contributes absolutely nothing to the game.
    Post edited by Esel on
  • I would not mind running into a group of stealthers if they couldn't use PS or vanish. I could at least blap one before I died. But that's the problem. A group of 5 or 6 pops on me, and in 5 seconds one has vanish, another has PS, and I am zephyred and then die and get zero RP :(

    Also @kedyma Give me all the RPs I've missed out on from solo sins popping me and vanishing and I would gain a RR level or 2 instantly. but @Llewd has the right idea
  • Vanish should definitely be a solo ability, or if you were popped out of stealth and haven't attacked yet.

    Speedburst + phase shift is the stupidest thing ever. With how short timers are, it's basically up 95% of the time. Or make it that you can't stealth for 2 minutes after using phase shift.

    It's such a cancer to players use the strongest ability in the game (stealth) without consequence.
  • edited April 28 PM
    Vanish 1 is useless. Leave vanish as is and make it so Vanish can only be used when above 75-80% health. This way, once you decide to stick around you stick around. You can use it defensively.

    If you make it solo only, the archers will group and the SINS will be with them but left out of the group so they can pop and vanish. It wont fix the zerg mentality people will just find new ways to make it work.

    If they removed the ability to see other group members while stealthed, archers will still see most of the group while Sins will have a harder time. Not sure if it would help prevent things like Openbook zerglings.

    Stealthers(Sins or Archers) zerg for most is because they cant kill 50% of their target solo or even have a 50/50 shot at it, so they zerg. Its easier to hit every target with > numbers. This isn't always about class balance either, their are lots of people who cant kill **** solo and its not their class. They need to accept they are just BAD and nerfing an archetype because most players as sneaks or visi's are bad, is the wrong way to go for balance. That way of thinking is how zerging began.......
    Shoke wrote: »
    Speedburst + phase shift is the stupidest thing ever. With how short timers are, it's basically up 95% of the time.

    Up every 15 mins, I hardly call that combo up 95% of the time when most class abilities are <10 mins. Also you can get popped out of speed WHILE in Phase shift. Learn to do it.

    If you give stealthers better defense and offense, then sure take their stealth away. Otherwise, you'll destroy 6 classes........

    Every realm has classes which can hunt down the sneaks, the question is, do your realm mates help out? Don't complain because the classes that could cut down on the stealther's DON'T. Instead of camping a solo spot as sneak group go find that 2-3 man in your own maze, but do they No. The problem in all cases is the PEOPLE and their mentality.........
    Esel wrote: »
    Stealth contributes absolutely nothing to the game.

    I feed intel to region for the 7 hours a day I'm on line and on all movement of any size of group of enemies.

    I call that contribution wouldn't you?

    People call it radar when they get run down, meanwhile its probably sneaks like me, giving intel..........
    Post edited by Helluva on
  • edited April 28 PM
    ...
    Post edited by Helluva on
  • There are more stealth zergs proportionate to solo stealthers than there’s ever been. Want to ensure it remains that way...keep nerfing solo stealthers with the aim of nerfing the zerg.

    Messing with vanish is a sure fire way to thin the solo assassin population.

    Ways to thin the Zerg:

    1) remove their ability to see each other from clip range
    2) reduce the amount of RPs a grpd stealther receives
    3) make solo quests repeatable
    4) make archers easier to kill in melee
    5) remove remedy from archers
    6) get rid of powershot
    7) go back to old interruptable point blank shot

    Do these things to thin the Zerg by making them easier to kill. Then:

    1) boost archery dmg slightly
    2) shorten crit shot immunity enough that a soloer can crit-restealth-crit

    Boom.... healthy stealth community again
  • kedyma wrote: »
    There are more stealth zergs proportionate to solo stealthers than there’s ever been. Want to ensure it remains that way...keep nerfing solo stealthers with the aim of nerfing the zerg.

    Messing with vanish is a sure fire way to thin the solo assassin population.

    Ways to thin the Zerg:

    1) remove their ability to see each other from clip range
    2) reduce the amount of RPs a grpd stealther receives
    3) make solo quests repeatable
    4) make archers easier to kill in melee
    5) remove remedy from archers
    6) get rid of powershot
    7) go back to old interruptable point blank shot

    Do these things to thin the Zerg by making them easier to kill. Then:

    1) boost archery dmg slightly
    2) shorten crit shot immunity enough that a soloer can crit-restealth-crit

    Boom.... healthy stealth community again

    1) this shouldn't make much difference if people still camp MG/tower/quest areas
    2) same could be said about a visi group that rolls a solo/small man
    3) agree
    4) if this is the case, would like to see archers move faster than assassins, like before the stealth patch
    5) agree
    6) agree
    7) agree

    I don't think this will thin out the zergs. If you make them feel more vulnerable, they will group more.

    Are stealth groups still a big issue or are they only an issue because the population is still low?
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • edited April 28 PM
    null

    1) your response is unrelated completely
    2) sure it COULD be said.... but I didnt say it or suggest it
    4) I agree with that....honestly I agree with reverting most of the archery changes

    I see your point about making them feel more vulnerable. Maybe it would.... but as of now we are at 85-15 zerger to solo ratio... can’t get much worse. I personally think those changes encourage solo play and weaken the Zerg a little.

    Honestly, the population doesn’t feel low at all to me. Maze/doppels/island/flowers areas are instant action

    I don’t think the stealth Zerg is that big of a deal, really. Reason im discussing them is I think any change to vanish would be made in an attempt to weaken the zerg, but would nerf the soloer more.
    Post edited by kedyma on
  • KoeKoe
    edited April 28 PM
    I guess if I didn't see assassins taking out light and heavy tanks (along with almost all casters), the argument that sins are nerfed to oblivion would hold more water. What it is actually, is that playing a stealth is SUPER forgiving in today's current game, so very casual players gravitate towards that, and by necessity form groups (or don't get that many rps solo). Bite off more than you can chew vs a heavy tank with heals or two? Get some purple guard agro as well? Just climb a wall at any keep or solo zone, your enemy can't follow you and can't keep you in LOS for 10 seconds... Mez poison/snares whenever you need it. A good assassin can usually get away from multiples without even needing vanish.

    You aren't going to get rid of stealth groups and it's not a function of stealth being a difficult class to solo on.

    Vanish should only work if you got a deathblow within the last 30 seconds... If that were the case I'd actually be cool with it as a free ability (vanish 3) at say 45 stealth (non-composite).
    Post edited by Koe on
  • null

    Did someone say assassins have been nerfed to oblivion or did you just want to say that?

    Assassins are in a pretty good spot right now.

    Vanish shouldn’t be touched. At all.
  • Esel wrote: »

    For me, the answer is VERY simple. I know there are a lot of newer players in the game so many will not be aware that originally stealthers could NOT see other grouped stealthers.

    This is a good point but I think there's a use for stealth groups for the very casual player and nerfing this would absolutely cause these people to find something else to do. Is it super annoying? Yep. Are they imo toxic to my personal style of play? yep. But since they generally stick together it's a good reason to participate/listen in region chat which helps to build a tiny bit of community... and also it give the stealth group on your realm something to do other thank kill solos.

  • To be clear I am dead serious when I say stealth should be removed
  • kedyma wrote: »
    null

    1) your response is unrelated completely
    2) sure it COULD be said.... but I didnt say it or suggest it
    4) I agree with that....honestly I agree with reverting most of the archery changes

    I see your point about making them feel more vulnerable. Maybe it would.... but as of now we are at 85-15 zerger to solo ratio... can’t get much worse. I personally think those changes encourage solo play and weaken the Zerg a little.

    Honestly, the population doesn’t feel low at all to me. Maze/doppels/island/flowers areas are instant action

    I don’t think the stealth Zerg is that big of a deal, really. Reason im discussing them is I think any change to vanish would be made in an attempt to weaken the zerg, but would nerf the soloer more.

    1) saying it wouldn't matter if they had the ability to see each other in a grp if all they do is camp maze/MGs/quest locations as they can just set up and wait. If they had to constantly be on the move then I could see the "not visible" in grp affecting their ability to coordinate attacks.
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • Yes not visible for the group is the way to go .
  • It would be nice if below 50% health you were to fatigued to vanish.

    Nothing more rage inducing then turning the tides on someone who gets the jump on you from invisibility and as soon as they get low, poof gone. Then they show up later with another sin and three archers.

    Or have it only suppress dots for the length on the vanish, that way if you can get a dot on them before hand you maybe able to pop them as soon as vanish ends but it also gives them time to GTFO.
  • edited April 28 PM
    What about making it cost like 80% of end to use? If you are low on endurance then it won't fire, could make it the same for PS. This could make endo sapping styles/procs relevant again.
    Post edited by Dreamscape on
    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • is this really all about soloers getting blapped...................

    after almost all of them ran in some zerg or another skilled thing to get realm rank.....

    a rr 10+ is ok with wiping a low rr doing boxes, doppels etc...

    just more hypocritical bs.

    i seem to remember certain sdn members "grouping" think the only solo stealth guild was black company, but then i may be wrong :)
  • KatKat
    edited April 28 PM
    There really is no way to make adjustments to stealth zergers that wouldn't really hurt the solo stealther. Many of the suggestions above would destroy what is left of solo stealth game. It is time for BS to realize stealth zergers have totally abused stealth and just remove stealth from the game. Though BS would lose some players, I think the net gain would be positive.

    No matter what changes are made, the herd mentality will adjust, and they will keep zerging.

    This is from a rr12 hunter
    Post edited by Kat on
    Stealth zergs are a cancer
  • edited April 28 PM
    @kat

    Pls explain how reducing rps per kill in a stealth grp, taking away the ability to see grp mates, and making the solo quest repeatable would hurt soloers?

    I understand your pessimism, but let’s not pretend like zergers aren’t rewarded for zerging atm

    Edit: and I actually support removing stealth, not because of the Zergs but because of BS’s inability to achieve any sort of relative balance.

    @47el not sure if you’re posting in the correct thread, as your points don’t really relate to the convo
    Post edited by kedyma on
  • KatKat
    edited April 28 PM
    Hi @kedyma

    1. If BS could reduce rps per kill in a stealth group, that would be great. I am not confident that can or will ever happen.
    2. I have requested the solo quest be repeatable many times. My suggestion has been ignored
    3. Many people seem to think taking away ability to see each other would really hurt stealth groups. I don't. They would just adapt. They can still assist. And use ground targets to find each other. It would just be mild inconvenience they would adjust to

    These are the points that would severely hurt solo archers:

    make archers easier to kill in melee
    remove remedy from archers
    get rid of powershot

    While you make these suggestions, others want ps/zephyr removed.

    /smh
    Post edited by Kat on
    Stealth zergs are a cancer
  • Removing the ability to see group members stealthed would be fantastic.

    You already get less RPs killing somebody 6v1 as opposed to 1v1.

    Removing stealth is silly. The amount of toys/stats/items in the game today are to blame, as well as every other poor decision that has reduced population. Stealth zergers are only an issue when you have no other action areas to go to. Say two realms have stealth "zergs" out, and they are generally camping. Well if there is only one or two areas where you know action will be, there's a pretty good chance a stealth group will be camping that chokepoint. If action isn't centered around a chokepoint, it will flourish.

    Keep focusing on open-world RvR oriented objectives. EV has been ruining this game for too long, chokepoints in a central location, when no other RvR map (NF maps) have similar choke points. The doppel quests have helped, would be nice to have more home-keep porting but that's another point.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Removing the ability to see group members stealthed would be fantastic.

    You already get less RPs killing somebody 6v1 as opposed to 1v1.

    Removing stealth is silly. The amount of toys/stats/items in the game today are to blame, as well as every other poor decision that has reduced population. Stealth zergers are only an issue when you have no other action areas to go to. Say two realms have stealth "zergs" out, and they are generally camping. Well if there is only one or two areas where you know action will be, there's a pretty good chance a stealth group will be camping that chokepoint. If action isn't centered around a chokepoint, it will flourish.

    Keep focusing on open-world RvR oriented objectives. EV has been ruining this game for too long, chokepoints in a central location, when no other RvR map (NF maps) have similar choke points. The doppel quests have helped, would be nice to have more home-keep porting but that's another point.

    /ignore
    Stealth zergs are a cancer
  • Kat wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Removing the ability to see group members stealthed would be fantastic.

    You already get less RPs killing somebody 6v1 as opposed to 1v1.

    Removing stealth is silly. The amount of toys/stats/items in the game today are to blame, as well as every other poor decision that has reduced population. Stealth zergers are only an issue when you have no other action areas to go to. Say two realms have stealth "zergs" out, and they are generally camping. Well if there is only one or two areas where you know action will be, there's a pretty good chance a stealth group will be camping that chokepoint. If action isn't centered around a chokepoint, it will flourish.

    Keep focusing on open-world RvR oriented objectives. EV has been ruining this game for too long, chokepoints in a central location, when no other RvR map (NF maps) have similar choke points. The doppel quests have helped, would be nice to have more home-keep porting but that's another point.

    /ignore

    :#
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • null

    Grpd with 6 you can still pull 2k+ per kill with buggane up. It doesn’t scale as it should.
  • Kat wrote: »
    Dale_Perf wrote: »
    Removing the ability to see group members stealthed would be fantastic.

    You already get less RPs killing somebody 6v1 as opposed to 1v1.

    Removing stealth is silly. The amount of toys/stats/items in the game today are to blame, as well as every other poor decision that has reduced population. Stealth zergers are only an issue when you have no other action areas to go to. Say two realms have stealth "zergs" out, and they are generally camping. Well if there is only one or two areas where you know action will be, there's a pretty good chance a stealth group will be camping that chokepoint. If action isn't centered around a chokepoint, it will flourish.

    Keep focusing on open-world RvR oriented objectives. EV has been ruining this game for too long, chokepoints in a central location, when no other RvR map (NF maps) have similar choke points. The doppel quests have helped, would be nice to have more home-keep porting but that's another point.

    /ignore

    why remove stealth? stealth classes are free rps for visis
  • kedyma wrote: »
    null

    Grpd with 6 you can still pull 2k+ per kill with buggane up. It doesn’t scale as it should.

    Yeah sure if you're rr3? I would agree the variance needs to increase, but that mechanic is already in place
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • null

    Then I suggest the mechanic needs to be tweaked. Why are we arguing this? Do you not understand what I’m saying, or do you not agree?

    Ffs it’s pretty simple. Nerf the rps that stealth grps receive to the point that some of them think to themselves “hmm, maybe I’ll solo/duo/trio a bit in order to get better rps”

    It’s nuts to me that I’m having to explain this so many times. I run 3-6 on my rr8 bard and am constantly astonished at how many rps I pull per kill.... it’s way too high
  • You were asking for something that already exists, so I told you about it? I even detailed other points that supported your suggestions.
    "...the best thing to do if you disagree (or agree) isn't to ask us why (which is rhetorical)...." -John_Broadsword
    "the patch [1.127] is later this year" -Carol_Broadsword, aka "constable paddy biehbien of the **** local community Enforcement force "
    send a message with your wallet
  • Leave Vanish alone. Nothing wrong with it. Stealth is also a fun part of the game. Those who complain about it should give it a try. It is a challenge killing people with stealthers. You also have to use alot of patience to kill anyone with a stealther as your movement is restricted and everyone else is running around with speed buffs and perma sprint. You dont win every fight you pick as well even with the surprise advantage.
  • What about the assassin that climbed into a keep and takes someone out as hero forms and had to blow vanish to get a kill 80 vs 1. I make the greatest escapes without vanish most of the time by Los alone. Vanish one is perfect. Shouldn't vanish from stealth fights it's just dumb. There is no answer to nerf one side without the other. It's a game of war, there are no rules.
  • edited April 29 PM
    "#removestealth2020"
    I see players are still pushing this 15 years later...
    Post edited by Graalis on
  • edited April 29 PM
    Lol is called an assassin for a reason if you dont like it go play something else #removecrybabieswhocantgrowup
    Post edited by Names on
  • Give me old archery ruleset and I won’t group up with others. You could 1 shot folks back then. Archery was changed and made similar to magic casters but without the ability to do as much damage.
  • Last I checked "assassins" work alone, not in groups of 12 with cover from range @names. Also I thought assassin's were supposed to kill high value targets? No lowly noobs trying to pick up boxes loooool #skillz.

    Listen honestly they are free RPs for me most of the time since I am almost always with 8. But I understand the frustration of new players trying to learn the game and how they are going to feel after getting farmed by an invisible enemy over and over again.

    #removestealth2020
  • *sniffs air deeply* ahhhhhh I'm home.

    I remember me and my stealth group getting slammed on the old VN boards for being the first "stealth group"
  • Helluva wrote: »
    I feed intel to region for the 7 hours a day I'm on line and on all movement of any size of group of enemies.

    I call that contribution wouldn't you?

    People call it radar when they get run down, meanwhile its probably sneaks like me, giving intel..........

    intel is not only confined to stealther classes. In addition to this, it's not 2003 anymore, most zergs/groups can get most of the info they require from realm war maps.

  • Kat wrote: »
    3. Many people seem to think taking away ability to see each other would really hurt stealth groups. I don't. They would just adapt. They can still assist. And use ground targets to find each other. It would just be mild inconvenience they would adjust to

    I think you are overestimating your average stealth zerger here. To those good enough to adapt, then why not? Good play should be encouraged.
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