Population

@John_Broadsword @Carol_Broadsword
So, population has increased through EC. But it didnt increase significantly. At least not as much as i was hoping for. It is still hard to find a grp or a raid when you need it.
How can you change this? The only option you have is EC. There are still heavy restrictions on it, which make it very unattractive for many players.
Why is it so hard to remove them? Are you afraid you loose money when you remove them? I dont think, this is the case. More EC players (and we need much more of them) means more people to build grps, means more action, and this means more subbed people. Subbed people might want to come back, when they see there is more action here. And there are many people waiting for you, to work on those restrictions. So, I would say, you have nothing to loose, when removing some of them:

1. Make all classic classes/races available for EC. The classes are the basis, no one wants to be restricted to just 5 classes. Put the non-classic classes in the mithril store, so someone can unlock them if he wants to play them. And you make money with it!
2. Remove the 60RA points cap. RvR is the most important element in this game. So all players need to be able to reach the highest rr and spend those points.
3. EC accounts need to be able to use supremacy pots. Only if you are fully able to compete as a EC player, you will like this game.
4. Increase the rp reward for EC acc slightly. If a sub gets 4k from a kill, an EC only gets 1,3k? This is very little. Raise it to 2k. And you still have a big difference between sub and EC.
5. Remove or reduce the 180days restriction. Reduce it for example to 60days.

These suggestions basically summarize feedback given from numerous people. They cant be very difficult to implement, as they only consist of removing a cap or an option.

Which restrictions remain then to an EC player?
- Non-classic classes are not free.
- He gets only half rps than a subbed player does.
- He cant own a house.
- He cant craft.
- He has no champ abilities.

Still enough reasons for many people to subscribe.

This is maybe your last chance to make a significant change to EC. Please use it now!

Comments

  • edited November 30 PM
    The answer is simple: BS has no experience in monetizing f2p games. And instead of looking at what others did and learn from them they just came up with random ideas and put those into the game. The result is a massive failure.

    From my perspective implementing F2P properly in DAoC is not that much of an issue, but then I've been analyzing and playing f2p games for over 20 years now and happen to work on monetizing free software in bigger companies, although not on games. However that someone with that experience does not seem to be in the BS team is most likely the source of the problem.

    If I would have to implement DAoC f2p I would probably do it like this:

    The prime goal seems to be to get people into RvR and to a lesser extend PvE group content. Because lots of people in RvR is what will make paying customers most happy. So the first goal would be to pave the road to RvR and get f2p players to participate there and have fun while doing so. So:

    a) Remove all restrictions regarding RvR, namely: allow all classes and races to be played, players receive full leveling XP, all zones necessary to level up and all RvR zones must be freely available.
    b) Give free people a good incentive to stay in RvR, namely: make sure they have as much fun as other players, yet subtly slow down their progression so they stay in RvR for a longer time.

    With no hurdles on the road to RvR f2p players will happily enter that and entertain the paying customer with their sheer presence (and free RPs since they are inexperienced). So step 2 would be to identify and remove the hurdles on that road, which are:

    a) The gear requirement to participate in RvR.
    b) The power creep of experienced high RR players vs. inexperienced low RR players.

    Part a is rather simple, as gear is irrelevant for PvP. So taking it away won't destroy the game, but it will make those who worked hard for it unhappy. There are two solutions: either powerful gear only affects PvE, or a new server is rolled out where the gear limit is significantly lower (SI levels). I'd probably do the later and see how people react to it. My guess is: they won't go back to their old chars afterwards, since PvP will be a lot more fun without OP gear.

    Effectively a new player entering RvR should be at 90% effectiveness of a perfectly geared char. Then give that player some easy but optional "side-quests" that would bump up his effectiveness to something like 96%-98%, and have some very difficult and time-consuming quests ready for the min-maxers who love to be at 100%. And then stop there and never add any additional gear to not feed the power-creep. You can add PvP-irrelevant options though. So in the current state of the game the king's gear would be good enough for the 90%, doing the OW campaign would push you to 96% in like a day or two, and some very rare drops from raid bosses could push you to the 100%.

    Part b is more complex, as it requires proper balancing of RR abilities. Just reducing the limit won't do it, because then people would be done earlier and leave RvR, and making RR take longer won't fix it either but just delay the problem. The only solution seems to be to reduce the power of RAs to a point where a RR12 player is not 200% better, but only like 50%. So you still cannot win a 1:1 fight against such a player (unless you are lucky or a much better player), but a 2:1 would be possible, the rest would have to depend on player skill.

    To archive that I would identify and demote some of the "must have" abilities to standard class abilities (so available without any RRs) like purge, MoC and probably a few others. If those "must haves" are out of the way, the game also becomes much easier to balance, and PvP a lot less frustrating for new players. The remaining ones need to be toned down a little, as some RAs are capable of erasing a whole group. Those should rather be tactical options than overpowering ones, so the player feels like his skill has won the day and not an "I win" button. And always keep in mind how those RAs are going to hurt if 10 people with the same RA are using it at the same time.

    And then there is also the issue of stealther classes, which used to be balanced by being very difficult to level, which is no obsolete. I fear there is no way around a hefty balancing pass and tone down stealthers a lot, and give them alternative roles. It will hurt those players, but not doing so will hurt everyone else even more.


    Next step is monetization. How do you get free players to pay money for the game, yet not scare anyone away by forcing them to pay. This is always a bit tricky, as you need to cut very precisely so things don't look like must-haves, but like fair options.

    First thing I would do would be to offer 3 kinds of subscriptions (further details below):

    a) F2P - you get Classic, SI and all classes, races and RvR for free, however some restrictions apply like 50% reduced RPs/BPs gains, expansion zones and their features are not available, cannot own a house, chat restrictions apply.

    b) Subscription "Realm Guard" for 9.99/month - You no longer get reduced RPs/BPs and similar, you can own a house, but still not use the expansion zones/features.

    c) Subscription "Champion" for 14.99/month - You get unrestricted access to everything, as well as free store points every month (for being such a nice, paying customer, and also to advertise for the store stuff).

    You can switch between subscriptions on a monthly basis, no further restrictions apply. So if your "Champion" subscription runs out you will immediately become a f2p player. If you at any time decide to the switch to "Realm Guard" you can do so right away. PS: that 6 month f2p block is like the stupidest thing I ever heard of in gaming. Seriously!

    So a f2p player will rush to RvR and make the subscribed players happy and have fun themselves because no RvR restrictions are present. Lower RPs/BPs, lower crafting skill, ML or champion experience gains will make sure that they will stay longer, they are essentially paying with their time for the subscription of other players. It is essential that F2P players do not get any experience reduction relevant for leveling to 50 as they probably want to level with subscribed friends, and that would hurt that experience. On top of that the store has several offers for F2P players (among other things):

    - Buy and unlock any single expansion and it's features for your current character (5$) or your whole account (20$).
    - Buy a potion that allows full (subscribed) RP / BP / crafting / ML / CL gain (each an individual potion) for a reasonable time for 1$.

    If the free player is one with money, yet unwilling to subscribe, he can still enjoy the full game for a one-time fee, but has to pay frequently for the RP/BP boosts. A free player who does not have the money can still enjoy the basic game. Both "pay" with getting more subscribed players to the game by keeping the game alive and fun.

    Additionally some chat restrictions have to apply to keep spammers from spamming: a free player cannot use any global channels. A free player gets 5 whispers and can no longer whisper once these are exhausted, and "regenerates" one whisper per minute or one per answer to that whisper. Any player that spent at least 5$ on the store is lifted from those chat restrictions automatically.


    The "Realm Guard" player is one who has some money, but is not interested in anything but RvR, or he has to save some money, but considering the amount of time he spends in RvR potions for 1$ would be more expensive. This player gets the same options to unlock content as the free player, so after paying about 80$ he would have the same account as a "Champion" player, but not the free store points. This is the middle option for reasonable players that are not willing to pay the 15$ for an ancient game yet would still like to play it a lot. Like a fair middle ground.


    The "Champion" subscription is for the players commonly known as "cash cows" so people who do not care about the subscription fee, love the game, and want to experience everything it has to offer without limits. These are also the flag-carriers for this game so caring about them will be very beneficial as they usually do free advertising. The free store points frequently reminds them that the store exists and eases the barrier for them to spend even more money on the store, and if nice cosmetic items are available they will probably do so happily. And if nothing else they will advertise for free for store cosmetics because they get them for free and be happy as they stand out of the crowd with their exclusive looks.


    The store itself should have the usual:

    a) Nothing that even remotely gives an advantage in PvP.
    b) Cosmetic items that make you shine and stand out.
    c) Experience potions that allow you to level new characters, crafting skills, champion or master abilities faster.
    d) The stuff mentioned above.


    With that all players, no matter the subscription mode, will be happy customers in their individual way, and recommend the game to their friends (which is one of the most important things). Yet still a constant flow of money is incoming as you have more subscribed players, and store sales.
    Post edited by Menos on
  • Menos wrote: »
    a) The gear requirement to participate in RvR.
    b) The power creep of experienced high RR players vs. inexperienced low RR players.

    Part a is rather simple, as gear is irrelevant for PvP. So taking it away won't destroy the game, but it will make those who worked hard for it unhappy. There are two solutions: either powerful gear only affects PvE, or a new server is rolled out where the gear limit is significantly lower (SI levels). I'd probably do the later and see how people react to it. My guess is: they won't go back to their old chars afterwards, since PvP will be a lot more fun without OP gear.

    Effectively a new player entering RvR should be at 90% effectiveness of a perfectly geared char. Then give that player some easy but optional "side-quests" that would bump up his effectiveness to something like 96%-98%, and have some very difficult and time-consuming quests ready for the min-maxers who love to be at 100%. And then stop there and never add any additional gear to not feed the power-creep. You can add PvP-irrelevant options though. So in the current state of the game the king's gear would be good enough for the 90%, doing the OW campaign would push you to 96% in like a day or two, and some very rare drops from raid bosses could push you to the 100%.

    The gear requirement is a big problem for new players. But taking it away from the game, is almost the same as forming a new server. So, maybe the latter would be better in that case.
    But: when I collected my gear there were still frequently curse and OW raids. And this helps alot. You can for example do curse 9/10 several times. Each time you may get some item, that you can sell for 60p (sometimes more, sometimes less). That makes it alot easier (and more enjoyable) to get money. So, if more f2p player would come, that need OW/curse raids, then these would take place, and the problem of getting the gear would be feasible.
    Menos wrote: »
    Part b is more complex, as it requires proper balancing of RR abilities. Just reducing the limit won't do it, because then people would be done earlier and leave RvR, and making RR take longer won't fix it either but just delay the problem. The only solution seems to be to reduce the power of RAs to a point where a RR12 player is not 200% better, but only like 50%. So you still cannot win a 1:1 fight against such a player (unless you are lucky or a much better player), but a 2:1 would be possible, the rest would have to depend on player skill.

    To archive that I would identify and demote some of the "must have" abilities to standard class abilities (so available without any RRs) like purge, MoC and probably a few others. If those "must haves" are out of the way, the game also becomes much easier to balance, and PvP a lot less frustrating for new players. The remaining ones need to be toned down a little, as some RAs are capable of erasing a whole group. Those should rather be tactical options than overpowering ones, so the player feels like his skill has won the day and not an "I win" button. And always keep in mind how those RAs are going to hurt if 10 people with the same RA are using it at the same time.

    I see the problem. But if purge, moc, and other stuff is free, what do you spend your points on then? Would you add more RAs? Atleast we would have a totally different game then.
    Another question: What is the purpose of getting high rr, if not getting stronger?
    Maybe you shouldnt get THAT stronger, that can be.
    Nevertheless, if there would be more low rr in rvr again, they have a chance to find someone on the same level.
    But if you loose to a rr12 with rr2 and then quit....sorry, what do you expect? the rr12 played for 1++ years.
    Menos wrote: »
    Next step is monetization. How do you get free players to pay money for the game, yet not scare anyone away by forcing them to pay. This is always a bit tricky, as you need to cut very precisely so things don't look like must-haves, but like fair options.

    First thing I would do would be to offer 3 kinds of subscriptions (further details below):

    a) F2P - you get Classic, SI and all classes, races and RvR for free, however some restrictions apply like 50% reduced RPs/BPs gains, expansion zones and their features are not available, cannot own a house, chat restrictions apply.

    b) Subscription "Realm Guard" for 9.99/month - You no longer get reduced RPs/BPs and similar, you can own a house, but still not use the expansion zones/features.

    c) Subscription "Champion" for 14.99/month - You get unrestricted access to everything, as well as free store points every month (for being such a nice, paying customer, and also to advertise for the store stuff).

    You can switch between subscriptions on a monthly basis, no further restrictions apply. So if your "Champion" subscription runs out you will immediately become a f2p player. If you at any time decide to the switch to "Realm Guard" you can do so right away. PS: that 6 month f2p block is like the stupidest thing I ever heard of in gaming. Seriously!

    So a f2p player will rush to RvR and make the subscribed players happy and have fun themselves because no RvR restrictions are present. Lower RPs/BPs, lower crafting skill, ML or champion experience gains will make sure that they will stay longer, they are essentially paying with their time for the subscription of other players. It is essential that F2P players do not get any experience reduction relevant for leveling to 50 as they probably want to level with subscribed friends, and that would hurt that experience. On top of that the store has several offers for F2P players (among other things):

    - Buy and unlock any single expansion and it's features for your current character (5$) or your whole account (20$).
    - Buy a potion that allows full (subscribed) RP / BP / crafting / ML / CL gain (each an individual potion) for a reasonable time for 1$.

    If the free player is one with money, yet unwilling to subscribe, he can still enjoy the full game for a one-time fee, but has to pay frequently for the RP/BP boosts. A free player who does not have the money can still enjoy the basic game. Both "pay" with getting more subscribed players to the game by keeping the game alive and fun.

    Additionally some chat restrictions have to apply to keep spammers from spamming: a free player cannot use any global channels. A free player gets 5 whispers and can no longer whisper once these are exhausted, and "regenerates" one whisper per minute or one per answer to that whisper. Any player that spent at least 5$ on the store is lifted from those chat restrictions automatically.


    The "Realm Guard" player is one who has some money, but is not interested in anything but RvR, or he has to save some money, but considering the amount of time he spends in RvR potions for 1$ would be more expensive. This player gets the same options to unlock content as the free player, so after paying about 80$ he would have the same account as a "Champion" player, but not the free store points. This is the middle option for reasonable players that are not willing to pay the 15$ for an ancient game yet would still like to play it a lot. Like a fair middle ground.


    The "Champion" subscription is for the players commonly known as "cash cows" so people who do not care about the subscription fee, love the game, and want to experience everything it has to offer without limits. These are also the flag-carriers for this game so caring about them will be very beneficial as they usually do free advertising. The free store points frequently reminds them that the store exists and eases the barrier for them to spend even more money on the store, and if nice cosmetic items are available they will probably do so happily. And if nothing else they will advertise for free for store cosmetics because they get them for free and be happy as they stand out of the crowd with their exclusive looks.


    The store itself should have the usual:

    a) Nothing that even remotely gives an advantage in PvP.
    b) Cosmetic items that make you shine and stand out.
    c) Experience potions that allow you to level new characters, crafting skills, champion or master abilities faster.
    d) The stuff mentioned above.


    With that all players, no matter the subscription mode, will be happy customers in their individual way, and recommend the game to their friends (which is one of the most important things). Yet still a constant flow of money is incoming as you have more subscribed players, and store sales.

    That sounds reasonable. But also alot of work. How should they manage this...

  • Nevertheless, removing restrictions from EC could give a boost to population. And this is the major problem. I dont see what you can loose there. Why should a now subscribed player go f2p and get only half rps, loosing his house, loosing his craftingskills?
    More EC players = more subbed players.
    So, I stick to my 5 points and would give it a try. But to be said: if you change little, you only get little results.
  • Like reading a novel up in here, jeesh.
  • edited December 1 PM
    I didn’t read the wall of text but I’d agree they really really need a business finance person or a consultant on their staff.

    Even interns who can research the competition in other mmos.
    Drop the Ego the population on Saturday night US primetime isn’t great to put it lightly.

    Kudos for being responsive, but ripping off paying Subs in the Mith store isn’t a sustainable business model.

    GL
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • Kroko wrote: »
    Another question: What is the purpose of getting high rr, if not getting stronger?

    The purpose is always to become stronger, but the question is where that strength is added to. If you'd say you get +10% damage and HP per RR, then being high RR would be mandatory to participate in RvR. If you however instead get tactical abilities that do not directly influence a 1:1, like i.E. speed bursts, or ae slow downs, then you still become stronger, but yet individual fights would still be reasonably fun. I guess a good mix of that is a solution that would be best for this game.

    The big problem for new players here is that without purge/moc you basically can only zerg. Those are essential abilities, doing RvR without them is no fun. Also earning RPs but you have no choice on what to spend them on is no fun either. The first few RR are essentially just a test of whether or not the new guy read the guide. So these absolute must-haves should not be gated behind what you need them for, you should get them during normal leveling.
    But if you loose to a rr12 with rr2 and then quit....sorry, what do you expect? the rr12 played for 1++ years.

    I expect to loose because the other one is the more experienced player. If I loose however because he hit his "I win" button, then that's no fun for either side. Ok maybe a little fun for the guy who snapped his fingers and made me explode, but on a long term that gets boring fast.
    That sounds reasonable. But also alot of work. How should they manage this...

    The basics are easy to implement, like free classes and reduced gains. I assume they can implement those alternate subscription models and store unlocks pretty fast as well, as expansion-based locking is already a thing in this game, and moving the trigger to the store shouldn't be too hard. A new server with Classic/SI gear only shouldn't take to long either, but balancing all that properly might be the difficult part.
  • edited December 2 PM
    Menos wrote: »
    The big problem for new players here is that without purge/moc you basically can only zerg. Those are essential abilities, doing RvR without them is no fun. Also earning RPs but you have no choice on what to spend them on is no fun either. The first few RR are essentially just a test of whether or not the new guy read the guide. So these absolute must-haves should not be gated behind what you need them for, you should get them during normal leveling.

    I expect to loose because the other one is the more experienced player. If I loose however because he hit his "I win" button, then that's no fun for either side. Ok maybe a little fun for the guy who snapped his fingers and made me explode, but on a long term that gets boring fast.

    The basics are easy to implement, like free classes and reduced gains. I assume they can implement those alternate subscription models and store unlocks pretty fast as well, as expansion-based locking is already a thing in this game, and moving the trigger to the store shouldn't be too hard. A new server with Classic/SI gear only shouldn't take to long either, but balancing all that properly might be the difficult part.

    You suggest very strong changes, basically a totally new game. This is pretty unrealistic. A new server....i dont know if there will be one. Certainly not in the next months.
    [edited]

    The purpose of this thread was to get changes to EC, because that could be sth that helps now to raise population. It was not about discussing major changes to the game.
    Post edited by Driralin on
  • edited December 2 PM
    Like reading a novel up in here, jeesh.

    I know. I got 20% in and went brain dead.

    Here is my two cents. The divide on RR is my problem. I know this game can be fun I've played several toons up to RR10, way back like 10-12 years ago, but right starting new on my characters has been really tough in RVR. There are just so many veterans who can spank you to death so fast it's embarrassing.If I had the RR's I'd have a chance but I don't and I just feed them easy rps. The RR tricks are seriously fun to have and add so much to the game but I just can't see anything below RR5 standing any chance in this stage of game. I don't think I'll make it truthfully past a month without some way of paying for RR5.
    Post edited by Prank80 on
  • Kroko wrote: »
    The purpose of this thread was to get changes to EC, because that could be sth that helps now to raise population. It was not about discussing major changes to the game.

    My post is entirely about changes to EC. The resulting balancing changes are something that shouldn't be too wild and could be implemented later.
  • @Prank80

    More EC players means more people that you can kill.

    Otherwise I would join a BG or a guild for getting some RR.
  • Regarding changes to Endless Conquest (EC), I recommend the following:

    1.) Remove the 180 days restriction to convert from a Veteran account to an EC account. If Veteran players cannot afford or not willing to pay for the sub, then they will quit for 6+ months. The current restriction only leads to less players in game and is a loss of potential revenue from the Mithril merchant.

    2.) Expand class and race selections to include all classic classes (excluding stealthers) and races. Leave expansion classes and races behind the sub wall. Perhaps include a token on the Mithril merchant to purchase an expansion class / race for one character slot at a high price point similar to but not greater than the level 50 / ML10 / Cl15 token.

    3.) Allow EC players to unlock additional Realm Skill Points (RSPs), once they've reached the necessary Realm Rank (RR), in 10 point increments by purchasing a token from the Mithril store on a per character basis. For example, a RR7L0 EC character could purchase a token allowing them to earn RSPs from RR7L1 to RR8L0. They would have to purchase additional tokens to earn RSPs from RR8L1 to RR9L0 and so on.

    4.) Allow returning EC accounts to keep their RSPs earned before EC release. Apply the same RSP unlocking mechanism (see above) for their current RR tier. For example, if a returning player has a RR11L4 character, then they need to purchase a token to earn RSPs from RR11L5 to RR12L0. Another token would unlock RSPs for RR12L1 to RR13L0 and a final token for RR13L1 to RR14L0.

    5.) Add RP rewards to the current player kill tasks in the Battlegrounds. Numerous players are citing the RR gap as a reason for not subbing or playing. One approach to narrow the gap WITHOUT increasing RP bonuses would be to increase RP earnings in the Battlegrounds through kill tasks. The quests are already in place and just need to be changed to reward RPs instead of XP so they don't unintentionally level out faster. This would incentivize players to stay in the Battlegrounds a bit longer, specifically Lerivik and Cathal Valley, and allow them to gain some RR to be competitive at 50.

    6.) Get this game on Origin or Steam to draw in new players. DAoC has never been properly advertised and still remains poorly advertised, but it should be at least listed and promoted on a digital distribution platform.
  • I like the idea to exclude stealthers, that would at least not cause a horde of one-shotters awaiting you at every keep. There should be an exception for the Minstrel though.

    I don't think excluding expansion classes is a good idea. RvR is balanced around all classes being available, and if certain classes would be a real minority certain realms had a hard time competing. Maulers are one thing that can probably be locked, but Hibernia without Animists, or Midgard without Bone Dancers would loose a lot of necessary tactical utility.
  • There you go @Tyrantanic at least someone with brain about this whole EC situation. I really don't see why EC cant a hold of their toons they had work hard for years and years. And for those who are returning players cant even create a stealther if they want? something is really messed up with this whole EC. Sorry BS you need to work a little harder to bring the population through this and fix all the classes people been asking every single day ….stealther, necromancer, etc. And believe me not everyone are gonna pay mtx shop.
  • Tyrantanic wrote: »
    3.) Allow EC players to unlock additional Realm Skill Points (RSPs), once they've reached the necessary Realm Rank (RR), in 10 point increments by purchasing a token from the Mithril store on a per character basis. For example, a RR7L0 EC character could purchase a token allowing them to earn RSPs from RR7L1 to RR8L0. They would have to purchase additional tokens to earn RSPs from RR8L1 to RR9L0 and so on.

    4.) Allow returning EC accounts to keep their RSPs earned before EC release. Apply the same RSP unlocking mechanism (see above) for their current RR tier. For example, if a returning player has a RR11L4 character, then they need to purchase a token to earn RSPs from RR11L5 to RR12L0. Another token would unlock RSPs for RR12L1 to RR13L0 and a final token for RR13L1 to RR14L0.

    Thats a good idea, but the unlock shouldnt be too expensive.

    Tyrantanic wrote: »
    5.) Add RP rewards to the current player kill tasks in the Battlegrounds. Numerous players are citing the RR gap as a reason for not subbing or playing. One approach to narrow the gap WITHOUT increasing RP bonuses would be to increase RP earnings in the Battlegrounds through kill tasks. The quests are already in place and just need to be changed to reward RPs instead of XP so they don't unintentionally level out faster. This would incentivize players to stay in the Battlegrounds a bit longer, specifically Lerivik and Cathal Valley, and allow them to gain some RR to be competitive at 50.

    Thats a good idea too. Something should be done, so that new players can gain some RR. If there is no BG running, you dont have many opportunities.

    Classic classes are enough for balancing issues. Having to buy non-classic classes will be additional money.
  • Shamissa wrote: »
    There you go @Tyrantanic at least someone with brain about this whole EC situation. I really don't see why EC cant a hold of their toons they had work hard for years and years. And for those who are returning players cant even create a stealther if they want? something is really messed up with this whole EC. Sorry BS you need to work a little harder to bring the population through this and fix all the classes people been asking every single day ….stealther, necromancer, etc. And believe me not everyone are gonna pay mtx shop.

    Negative pretty much every single thread has been universal and voiced that stealthers should NOT be allowed via EC period dot.
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    Negative pretty much every single thread has been universal and voiced that stealthers should NOT be allowed via EC period dot.

    Well at least not in their current form. Stealthers have been balanced for years by being very difficult to level, but now that they are as easy to level as every other char the strong imbalance of a class that can destroy almost everyone else within seconds becomes obvious. So either they need some other way that makes them rare, or - what I would prefer - they need to be completely reworked.
  • Menos wrote: »
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Negative pretty much every single thread has been universal and voiced that stealthers should NOT be allowed via EC period dot.

    Well at least not in their current form. Stealthers have been balanced for years by being very difficult to level, but now that they are as easy to level as every other char the strong imbalance of a class that can destroy almost everyone else within seconds becomes obvious. So either they need some other way that makes them rare, or - what I would prefer - they need to be completely reworked.

    When was the last time you played a stealthing class? Because I haven't seen a sneak destroy any one in seconds unless your a rr1 and in crud gear. The stealthing class is a different game all together we are the most hated and hunted in the game always on the move now never static. BS has made is harder on playing a stealthing class that the majority of us on hib at least are playing visi's now. EC players should not be able to play any stealth class period. Since EC came out all whats on these boards are free players complaining how they want more and do not want to pay.. But us paying players should be the ones they cater to. Yes I still play my NS (just not as much) yes I group with friends ( zerger I guess) Whats going to hurt the pop in the long run will be the gap between the rr's and the big elite 8 mans that can pretty much handle big zergs and roll small mans .
    See you all on the battlefield
    Badgor NS
    BulloRama Warden
    Macwynne Hero
    Diavoll Warrior
    Demonn Shadowblade
  • edited December 3 PM
    Stealther can maybe kill casters in bad gear fast, but not others.

    But they can exclude stealther from EC...i dont care.
    Post edited by Kroko on
  • edited December 3 PM
    ...
    Post edited by Kroko on
  • edited December 4 PM
    Badgor wrote: »
    When was the last time you played a stealthing class?

    A year ago. My new chars got one-shotted by stealthers so frequently that I wanted to see if I was actually just bad or if Assassins are just overpowered. So I leveled a Scout and a Shadowblade and run them through RvR for an evening in kings gear.

    The Scout was actually pretty tough and I only got a few kills, because there are so many ways to block arrows (and I suck at playing archers). Those I hit however dropped within seconds. The Shadowblade was a completely different story though: first hit out of stealth was about 1500 damage on cloth (reminder: in crappy king's gear), and I just teared through any caster like a hot 2-handed knife through butter. Armored enemies were a lot tougher because they actually had the time to use their RAs, which usually meant I'd loose that fight.

    I then teamed up with two other SB who were a lot more experienced than I was (and also better equipped), and from that point on I learned how powerful this class truly is. We killed absolutely everyone we could get in range to, killed people in the middle of a group and left unharmed, and the only time we died was to the bait of the enemy stealther group.

    So lesson learned for me was: the stealther game it is not about winning the fight, you win the fight, it is just about choosing the right moment. Spontaneously dropping dead when you leave the keep is imo however very bad game design.
    Post edited by Menos on
  • edited December 4 PM
    @Menos

    Sorry, but thats just hard to believe. A stealther in the old kings gear with rr2 wouldnt kill alot. maybe some other noobs in kings gear.

    Probably you had a good impression, because you teamed up with 2 templated experienced stealthers.

    Btw, I kill rr10+ stealthers frequently with my rr7 bm.

    Post edited by Kroko on
  • edited December 4 PM
    Its what you open up on that will determine rather you win or not(for the most part)

    The biggest advantage of a stealther is to pick a fight you can win not one you cant.
    Post edited by Names on
  • @Menos fyi they nerfed perf a few years back... Yes, SBs were regularly hitting casters for 1500 without a crit. Things are a little different now I think. I definitely remembered when 'sins were ripping everything. It was a bad time for Broadsword. They messed up
  • Which seems to not be a cloth wearing caster like he was talking about?

    Unless all of both of your edits are confusing me.


    That earlier wall of text had some great points. But I think it'd just be easier to make a new server to get subs now, then they have time to actually fix EC for ywain.
  • AlaskaMike wrote: »
    That earlier wall of text had some great points. But I think it'd just be easier to make a new server to get subs now, then they have time to actually fix EC for ywain.


    That really depends on how they intend to structure the alt server. If it's a sub only classic, then I agree.
    If they intend to allow EC on a classic server, then using Ywain to shape a better F2P model is an excellent idea.
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