Bard - Crescendo

Since I have been playing my Bard recently, I find myself rarely using Crescendo. I used to play Bard back in the day (pre 2010) before this ability was introduced so it may be I am not accustomed to having access to it. However, I find it troubling that both Minstrels and Skalds have instant casts for Crescendo while Bards have an interruptible casted version with the same reuse timer. I think this should be changed to be an uninterruptible casted version if it cannot be instant cast.

Share your thoughts.
  1. Should the Crescendo ability on Bards be changed?35 votes
    1. No - working as intended
      65.71%
    2. Yes - uninterruptible cast
        8.57%
    3. Yes - instant cast
      25.71%
«1

Comments

  • edited November 2018 PM
    Definitively instant . Why skald and minstrel got this insta when bard need to stop and cast it
    Post edited by Hellblast on
  • I vote No. Only because bard has instant aoe amnesia..
  • Think it’s because of the dynamic of the classes.
  • Bard gets an instant crescendo on your loyalty cloak. Instant bolt range amnesia isn’t good enough...
  • Fateboi wrote: »
    Bard gets an instant crescendo on your loyalty cloak. Instant bolt range amnesia isn’t good enough...

    Perfect Crescendo on the class cloak is a self buff. Instant amnesia does not pertain to this discussion. I understand Bards have a lot of utility, but I do not see the justification behind giving them an interruptible Crescendo ability. Making it an uninterruptible cast would be okay with me instead of instant.
  • Or make crescendo on skald and minstrel castable and interrutible and will be fine .
  • Moc for cresendo then
  • Corey117 wrote: »
    Moc for cresendo then

    This argument can be made for any ability.
  • Instant would be totally fine in my opinion. The Cloak Charge isn't an argument, it's usable every 15 minutes for around 10 seconds. Yeah, it's pretty fast, but sometimes not comparable with the 1250 100% MHB. I would really like to use this ability more often with my Bard, but most times there is simply no time for it. The other argument in case of the Bard has the 2000 Range amne is absolutely wrong. Yeah it is true that the range is high, but it has a RUT, in most cases it's been used for slowing other kiting groups down, that's quite nice i guess, but compare it to the Pac-Healer or Sorcerer. 2300 Range, unlimited casting, ultimate MoC destroyer and breaks every other casting attempt. The Healer has 4 CC Instants, 3 Heal Instants, Skald Speed, AE CC/Stun, Root and can be Soju. Today it's routine that the Bard is most times the only Supporter in Small man or other setups cause Druids/Wardens are pretty rare. I think it would be helpful to make Crescendo instant or unruptable.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Tbh bolt range amnesia is valid here regarding overall class balance. This is the problem with paper Daoc everyone wants everything with complete disregard to realm vs realm balance.

    They already get instant crescendo from cloak so now you want two?

    For the record I play a bard also.
    Post edited by Fateboi on
  • Every class is unique :)
  • Bard is also generally a caster as well. The other 2 are more melee interupt oriented
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Tbh bolt range amnesia is valid here regarding overall class balance. This is the problem with paper Daoc everyone wants everything with complete disregard to realm vs realm balance.

    They already get instant crescendo from cloak so now you want two?

    For the record I play a bard also.

    How does instant amnesia influence how Crescendo is used in combat? Instant amnesia is already balanced compared to the casted versions. Besides, you can't lock down MoC casters with instant amnesia. I would rather have casted but that was given to Mentalists.

    Again, the cloak Crescendo buff is self only. It's usually used to catch people if you don't use the ablative. Are you suggesting that Crescendo is only useful as a self buff? You don't try to get people out of tank trains? Making it uninterruptible seems fair to me. We have to stop and cast it.
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Edit: double post.
    Post edited by Tyrantanic on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Imagine that, BS put thought into bards and crescendo balance. Perfectly fine the way it is.

    Edit: voted no
    Post edited by Snaillyn on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    First not all bard use cloak in template , second the instant crescendo its a use each 15 mins self buff , third why give instant cresendo to the other realm and give castable version on bard ? The skald and minstrel can put cresendo instant on a friendly target without stop moving and cant be rupted . The bard version are interuptible , cant move on casting . And ill trade instant amnésie anytime for a castable version , instant amnésia are a pretty bad argument . The skald got march of bradgi song who make friendly group moving 115 % more faster in combat
    Post edited by Hellblast on
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Ok, im totally fine with no instant Amnesia! Make it happen.

    Edit: Take away hibs crutch for killing smalls and solos, give them instant crescendo!
    Post edited by Snaillyn on
  • Hellblast wrote: »
    First not all bard use cloak in template , second the instant crescendo its a use each 15 mins self buff , third why give instant cresendo to the other realm and give castable version on bard ? The skald and minstrel can put cresendo instant on a friendly target without stop moving and cant be rupted . The bard version are interuptible , cant move on casting . And ill trade instant amnésie anytime for a castable version , instant amnésia are a pretty bad argument . The skald got march of bradgi song who make friendly group moving 115 % more faster in combat

    It's fine the way it is. If you want to start comparing things like this then you could argue:
    why do Hib casters get base line stun?
    why do Mid healers get aoe stun?
    why (insert what one realm has and not the others)...

    Dreamscape 12Lx Dark Lotus
  • I have yet to see a rationale for an interruptible Crescendo buff on Bards. It's not game changing either way.

    The instant amnesia argument dates back to the beginning of the game. It's not that strong beyond griefing players who run. I used to out CC people consistently with it but not with todays casting speeds. Having the jump usually dictates who wins the initial CC but that doesn't guarantee a win. So much has changed since vanilla DAoC that using age old arguments is moot.
  • Yeah my opinion is different from yours, you have sprint/insta anyone who has to cast has to stop to do so, about time bards had to stop and cast something other then heals.
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    Yeah my opinion is different from yours, you have sprint/insta anyone who has to cast has to stop to do so, about time bards had to stop and cast something other then heals.

    /face allows you to stop nearly instantly. I do it all the time on my Sorc and Healer to knock people off their horses. Same effect, different approach.
  • Only reasoning I can see making crescendo castable on bards is the two instant mezzes they(can) get as well. Other than that, no clue.

    Not a flame post - yes I know they're very short duration - just pulling out a potential reasoning. You all know the main man who can answer this question.
  • Only reasoning I can see making crescendo castable on bards is the two instant mezzes they(can) get as well. Other than that, no clue.

    Not a flame post - yes I know they're very short duration - just pulling out a potential reasoning. You all know the main man who can answer this question.

    I'll submit it as a grab bag question out of curiosity.

    I'm okay with it being castable, just not interruptible. Based on the votes, I'm the only one with that opinion. :(
  • @Beetleguisse i have been doing the same thing for years, much easier to insta then have to cast is my point.
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    @Beetleguisse i have been doing the same thing for years, much easier to insta then have to cast is my point.

    Easier, sure. Better? I don't think so. The trade-off here is utility. Casted amnesia will always be superior to instant amnesia based on my experiences with playing a Healer, Sorcerer, and Bard.

    We could go back and forth on amnesia, but that's not what this topic is about. I understand people want to use it as an argument against Bards getting a comparable Crescendo ability but that cannot be the sole reason for its current implementation as instant amnesia is already balanced with respect to the casted version.
  • @Beetleguisse Like I said, no bards dont need anything. About that Instant Amnesia, you should lose speed but you dont cause of chant timers. Is that working as intended cause last time i checked stopping and moving are 2 different things. A bard moving at speed 6 and does not lose speed after an instant should be looked at then because honestly i dont think they should continue speed after an offense spell. It maybe that the timer expires before chant goes back up then that needs to be looked at also. I bet when you stop to cast on your healer/sorc you lose your speed.

    GL
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    @Beetleguisse Like I said, no bards dont need anything. About that Instant Amnesia, you should lose speed but you dont cause of chant timers. Is that working as intended cause last time i checked stopping and moving are 2 different things. A bard moving at speed 6 and does not lose speed after an instant should be looked at then because honestly i dont think they should continue speed after an offense spell. It maybe that the timer expires before chant goes back up then that needs to be looked at also. I bet when you stop to cast on your healer/sorc you lose your speed.

    GL

    You can lose speed on all three if the in-combat timer is longer than the duration remaining on the speed chant. Bards can time it easier to avoid losing speed but the mechanics are still the same for Sorcerers and Healers. I'm not advocating for Bards to get something "new". They are solid in their role. I'm attempting to understand why the Crescendo ability on Bards is nerfed relative to other classes when the nerf is unwarranted.
  • You know what @Beetleguisse I can’t answer that specifically, but me personally can understand the reasoning in it. You can’t? Really?

    + Let me say this about having to stop and cast something vs something you don’t have too, this game has lag, people exploit it ALL the time, walls on keeps, rocks, hills, bridges the list goes on, being able to SPAM an ability consistently with out losing speed @ all?!?! An don't tell me timing for bard is hard when it comes to losing speed, lets get that out of the way, no other class does this. You try to stop and time a dang speed spell and cast with out losing speed... That’s nonsense bruh. You seen my post, remove it add a timer, and now this post look at the timing of said instant Amnesia/speed and offensive spell.

    Now can you see why you didn’t get another instant that would save your bacon, but what did they do for you to compensate for said loss in instant ability. They gave you it in your cloak.
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    @Beetleguisse Like I said, no bards dont need anything. About that Instant Amnesia, you should lose speed but you dont cause of chant timers. Is that working as intended cause last time i checked stopping and moving are 2 different things. A bard moving at speed 6 and does not lose speed after an instant should be looked at then because honestly i dont think they should continue speed after an offense spell. It maybe that the timer expires before chant goes back up then that needs to be looked at also. I bet when you stop to cast on your healer/sorc you lose your speed.

    GL

    You do lose speed if it is interupted.
  • Snaillyn wrote: »
    You know what @Beetleguisse I can’t answer that specifically, but me personally can understand the reasoning in it. You can’t? Really?

    + Let me say this about having to stop and cast something vs something you don’t have too, this game has lag, people exploit it ALL the time, walls on keeps, rocks, hills, bridges the list goes on, being able to SPAM an ability consistently with out losing speed @ all?!?! An don't tell me timing for bard is hard when it comes to losing speed, lets get that out of the way, no other class does this. You try to stop and time a dang speed spell and cast with out losing speed... That’s nonsense bruh. You seen my post, remove it add a timer, and now this post look at the timing of said instant Amnesia/speed and offensive spell.

    Now can you see why you didn’t get another instant that would save your bacon, but what did they do for you to compensate for said loss in instant ability. They gave you it in your cloak.

    Since I've played the other two primary CC classes on the regular, I can say without a doubt that instant amnesia is not nearly as effective as casted amnesia. Please read what I wrote regarding timing. You cannot SPAM instant amnesia and not lose speed. That is a fallacious statement. I think @Broadsword needs to explain the mechanics behind how Amnesia works regarding breaking speed and being in-combat as it appears many people are misinformed.

    Lag is an inherent problem with any online game. There was a time when lag-casting was a thing which artificially extended range. It may still be but not nearly as bad as it once was from my experience. Again, the cloak Crescendo /use is self only. It should not be compared to the Crescendo ability which can be casted on a realm mate. My argument is to make the Crescendo ability an uninterruptible cast, not instant.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Bard gets an instant crescendo on your loyalty cloak. Instant bolt range amnesia isn’t good enough...

    Perfect Crescendo on the class cloak is a self buff. Instant amnesia does not pertain to this discussion. I understand Bards have a lot of utility, but I do not see the justification behind giving them an interruptible Crescendo ability. Making it an uninterruptible cast would be okay with me instead of instant.
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Tbh bolt range amnesia is valid here regarding overall class balance. This is the problem with paper Daoc everyone wants everything with complete disregard to realm vs realm balance.

    They already get instant crescendo from cloak so now you want two?

    For the record I play a bard also.

    I'm a Hibernia main player and I have to agree with others on here @Beetleguisse. You can't say instant amnesia doesn't play a factor in this. As others have stated it does indeed play a factor in the overall "balance" of the class. Having the ability to drop others out of speed without losing speed is key for any group chasing down others. It's also something no other class on the other realms get. You are saying "Class X and Y have this instant crescendo but I don't. I should get that and if not then why?" But yet you wouldn't feel the same way if Skalds and minstrils said that they should get instant amnesia since Bards have it and they don't. It's all part of the balance of the game. Maybe its minor, but it is a factor.

    As a similar example, people say scouts under perform compared to rangers and hunters, which is true, but when you bring up that part of the reason they under perform is because Albion has access to minstrels that the other 2 realms don't have access to they always respond that the two shouldn't be related. However, say all they want, it IS related. All things being considered (RR/Skill/Template/# of players) Albion already has an advantage in stealther groups by having access to a CC class with SoS and ameliorating melodies. If they put scouts on par with rangers/hunters it would even be that much more lopsided. Same in this case. Bards don't get instant crescendo while minstrils/skalds do, but bards gain instant amnesia while no other realm does. DAoC balance is a fickle thing to say the least. ;)
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Bard gets an instant crescendo on your loyalty cloak. Instant bolt range amnesia isn’t good enough...

    Perfect Crescendo on the class cloak is a self buff. Instant amnesia does not pertain to this discussion. I understand Bards have a lot of utility, but I do not see the justification behind giving them an interruptible Crescendo ability. Making it an uninterruptible cast would be okay with me instead of instant.
    Fateboi wrote: »
    Tbh bolt range amnesia is valid here regarding overall class balance. This is the problem with paper Daoc everyone wants everything with complete disregard to realm vs realm balance.

    They already get instant crescendo from cloak so now you want two?

    For the record I play a bard also.

    I'm a Hibernia main player and I have to agree with others on here @Beetleguisse. You can't say instant amnesia doesn't play a factor in this. As others have stated it does indeed play a factor in the overall "balance" of the class. Having the ability to drop others out of speed without losing speed is key for any group chasing down others. It's also something no other class on the other realms get. You are saying "Class X and Y have this instant crescendo but I don't. I should get that and if not then why?" But yet you wouldn't feel the same way if Skalds and minstrils said that they should get instant amnesia since Bards have it and they don't. It's all part of the balance of the game. Maybe its minor, but it is a factor.

    As a similar example, people say scouts under perform compared to rangers and hunters, which is true, but when you bring up that part of the reason they under perform is because Albion has access to minstrels that the other 2 realms don't have access to they always respond that the two shouldn't be related. However, say all they want, it IS related. All things being considered (RR/Skill/Template/# of players) Albion already has an advantage in stealther groups by having access to a CC class with SoS and ameliorating melodies. If they put scouts on par with rangers/hunters it would even be that much more lopsided. Same in this case. Bards don't get instant crescendo while minstrils/skalds do, but bards gain instant amnesia while no other realm does. DAoC balance is a fickle thing to say the least. ;)

    I concede that saying if Skalds and Minstrels have instant Crescendo, then Bards should get instant Crescendo is a poor argument. However, its current implementation is limiting since it can be interrupted. Stopping to cast isn't an issue. Stopping to cast and being interrupted is an issue for an ability that is primarily used for kiting. I do not agree that Bards having instant Amnesia is a sufficient rationale for Crescendos current limitation.
  • However, its current implementation is limiting since it can be interrupted. Stopping to cast isn't an issue. Stopping to cast and being interrupted is an issue for an ability that is primarily used for kiting.

    But any mid/alb players that have to cast amnesia would say the same thing about amnesia @Beetleguisse. They could say that them having to stop to cast amnesia puts them at a disadvantage to bards when chasing people down.
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    However, its current implementation is limiting since it can be interrupted. Stopping to cast isn't an issue. Stopping to cast and being interrupted is an issue for an ability that is primarily used for kiting.

    But any mid/alb players that have to cast amnesia would say the same thing about amnesia @Beetleguisse. They could say that them having to stop to cast amnesia puts them at a disadvantage to bards when chasing people down.

    Except that instant amnesia has a shorter range and a reuse timer. Instant amnesia is already balanced with respect to the casted versions. See my above statements.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    RonELuvv wrote: »
    However, its current implementation is limiting since it can be interrupted. Stopping to cast isn't an issue. Stopping to cast and being interrupted is an issue for an ability that is primarily used for kiting.

    But any mid/alb players that have to cast amnesia would say the same thing about amnesia @Beetleguisse. They could say that them having to stop to cast amnesia puts them at a disadvantage to bards when chasing people down.

    Except that instant amnesia has a shorter range and a reuse timer. Instant amnesia is already balanced with respect to the casted versions. See my above statements.

    I think any class with casted amnesia in Alb or Mid would gladly lose 300 range for an instant version of amnesia. I will agree that the casted version has its advantages as well, but there is a reason many people have posted about how unfair it is that Bards are the only class with instant amnesia to knock people off mounts or out of speed.
    Post edited by RonELuvv on
  • The Minstrel has a lot of utility tied up into instruments which, for obvious reasons (they have to go into melee sometimes) is detrimental.

    Bards however are pure caster and Skalds are pure melee. So I think the forms of Crescendo fits the role of the class.

    However Bard Nurture and Regrowth lines could use a slight tap up.
    Minstrel. Thane, Druid
    Heretic, BD, Animist
    Mauler
  • RonELuvv wrote: »
    RonELuvv wrote: »
    However, its current implementation is limiting since it can be interrupted. Stopping to cast isn't an issue. Stopping to cast and being interrupted is an issue for an ability that is primarily used for kiting.

    But any mid/alb players that have to cast amnesia would say the same thing about amnesia @Beetleguisse. They could say that them having to stop to cast amnesia puts them at a disadvantage to bards when chasing people down.

    Except that instant amnesia has a shorter range and a reuse timer. Instant amnesia is already balanced with respect to the casted versions. See my above statements.

    I think any class with casted amnesia in Alb or Mid would gladly lose 300 range for an instant version of amnesia. I will agree that the casted version has its advantages as well, but there is a reason many people have posted about how unfair it is that Bards are the only class with instant amnesia to knock people off mounts or out of speed.

    The argument that keeps being brought up with instant amnesia is that it knocks people out of speed/off horses. This has little to do with its utility and more to do with griefing. I cannot imagine any Sorcerer or Healer would want instant amnesia over the casted one. Remember, casted amnesia allows you to lock down MoC casters. You cannot do this with instant amnesia.
  • Ylazul wrote: »
    The Minstrel has a lot of utility tied up into instruments which, for obvious reasons (they have to go into melee sometimes) is detrimental.

    Bards however are pure caster and Skalds are pure melee. So I think the forms of Crescendo fits the role of the class.

    However Bard Nurture and Regrowth lines could use a slight tap up.

    I'm okay with Minstrels and Skalds having instant Crescendo. Not going to argue against that.

    The Nurture and Regrowth spec lines are fine as they are for Bards. Regrowth spec has heals (single and group) and cure nearsight/silence. The Nurture spec line has a group heal proc, self mes damp, AF buff, low tier magic resist buff, str/con self buff, endurance regen self buff (not useful imo), and all the regen songs (heal / power / endurance). I used to think the songs should have been part of the Music line (certainly was more fitting); however, with the implementation of baseline speed, this has become moot.

    Might try out a Battle Bard spec for giggles.
  • edited November 2018 PM
    As started earlier bard is a main cc class. Mini/skald are not and therefore "I" feel the instant Crescendo fits for them... Now does it fit for the main cc class maybe.. sorc/healer/bard maybe but just feel lucky they gave it to the class a normal casted spell :)
    Post edited by rocketait on
  • BurkleyRIP wrote: »
    Bard is also generally a caster as well. The other 2 are more melee interupt oriented

    This is the only valid point here. Minstrel and skald are in melee range, bard kites out ( I play a bard). Bard has cloak for self and casted for realm mates.
  • edited April 25 PM
    Have you been speaking about some others spell than Crescendos ?
    No spells are there alone, they all depending and working together, who other than the Bard, has Instant Lullaby(2k range+%items/buff)?
    Not even only speaking about Speedbots, who over aaaaall realms got instant Lullabies?
    You have to cast to give speed to friends, but do not have to cast to take it away from the enemy :wink:
    We.. the chosen to catch'em! :sunglasses:
    As I told you, try to imply it after a demezz, or on someone being rooted, that will push him/her up to reassist in fight
    Post edited by NorrHainergy on
  • Make the amnesia not break speed and I'm fine with this change. As is... that simple little spell is crazy powerful for pursuit and in some cases winning mez.
  • I don't feel strongly either way. The discussion was made to rationalize its current implementation which Broadsword provided, albeit vaguely, in their Grab Bag response:

    https://www.darkageofcamelot.com/article/friday-grab-bag-11302018

    I'm fine with the Bard as is except for the level 15 blunt style. It is still listed as one of the old reactionary styles where your opponent has to evade the attack. Not like I'd hit anyone with defense as Battle Bard spec but I can dream.
  • I think everyone here is ignoring the real issue. #removestealth2019
  • Whatever!!! lol
  • Stealth is fun !!
    uwh0rrcpdkfy.jpg
    Bumblebunny to the rescue !
  • He knows I look at every post searching for his anti-stealth agenda. Even on a post dealing with Bards. lol
  • Still sounds anti-stealth. lol
Sign In or Register to comment.